School shooting at SC Elementary School
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29-09-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 06:13 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 03:05 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  Ah, did I miss something, admit I did not read every word. Was this person actually on the banned list - too young, insane, a criminal... ?

But does every legal owner keep his or her gun in a locker and ammo in a seperate safe place, when not actually in his or her possession, so it can not easily be "borrowed" or stolen?

Or are guns just "tools" to some, like shovels, hammers, carving knives . . . ?


Minors can't buyy guns.
Never same they could, but how many of them can access guns via less than responsible parents, siblings or even "gang amouries"?

Access is the critical factor, not ownership. If there are a thousand guns in households maybe one will be used in such a crime per year - chances are the owners need a gun and the large majority stick to every safety rule.

How many guns in America?

Quote:According to the Geneva-based Small Arms Survey – the leading source of international public information about firearms – the U.S. has the best-armed civilian population in the world, with an estimated 270 million total guns. That’s an average of 89 firearms for every 100 residents — far ahead of Yemen, which comes in second with about 55 firearms for every 100 people, or Switzerland, which is third with 46 guns for every 100 people.

Statistically one might wonder how many of those owners do not keep their gun in a locker, away from the kids or anyone else, when not in their own purse, pocket, on their hip or locked in the car until they get to the range or hunting ground?

How many keep a loaded gun in the bedside draw, the hall cabinet, in their purse in the living room or bedroom . . . Whilst they are out washing the car, mowing the lawn, having a drink with the neighbour? Takes only a moment to grab a small gun and go.

Have they said what kind of gun it was yet?

It is the sheer numbers plus the chances for the wrong combination of availability and opportunity and a little, maybe temporary, mental instability to make a deadly mix.

All because of a legendary, almost mythical, historical imperative that a nation should have outgrown by now.

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29-09-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
I hope everyone pulls through. As terrible as it is, at least there's hope for them, unlike other shootings. Sad

(28-09-2016 01:48 PM)tomilay Wrote:  My worst nightmare. Far worse than all the terror stories that politicians and media run 24/7. What kind of monster shoots up an elementary school?

Someone with no conscious who wants to follow the quickest route to attention.

Popcorn I put more thought into fiction than theists put into reality.
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29-09-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 10:10 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Statistically one might wonder how many of those owners do not keep their gun in a locker, away from the kids or anyone else, when not in their own purse, pocket, on their hip or locked in the car until they get to the range or hunting ground?

How many keep a loaded gun in the bedside draw, the hall cabinet, in their purse in the living room or bedroom . . . Whilst they are out washing the car, mowing the lawn, having a drink with the neighbour? Takes only a moment to grab a small gun and go.

Have they said what kind of gun it was yet?

It is the sheer numbers plus the chances for the wrong combination of availability and opportunity and a little, maybe temporary, mental instability to make a deadly mix.

All because of a legendary, almost mythical, historical imperative that a nation should have outgrown by now.

A gun is either safely stored or available for use, and misuse. We can't say we have a gun for home defense and also safe that it's safely out of the hands of people who might misuse it.
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29-09-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
To me, the culprit here is communication.

When someone has some conflict on their mind, how is it that the first thing (or even the second, third or twelfth thing) they think will resolve that conflict, is to enact violence? How has this become the standardized "go to" in problem solving?

*****
Hypothetical situation...
Suppose this kid had tried to tell "random authority figure at school" that dad is an abusive asshole and no one listened?
Kid gets violent.
Bet that gets heard.

Can't tell you how many times I've seen that actually happen.

*****

Has violence become the only statement anyone pays attention to?
Shouldn't society be scrambling for an alternative?

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29-09-2016, 10:49 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 04:16 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  I admit that I was thinking of shootings in general. Average of seven minors killed by guns, in accidents and through murder, per day according to some. Not all in schools but all in society.

Believe it or not, I've never witnessed a murder, nor a gun accident. They're not as commonplace as you implied above, which was why I felt the need to comment.

(29-09-2016 04:16 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Are school killings any worse than in the home, the yard, the street, the playfield or anywhere else? Does having no real motive make it worse than being full of hate and beer over a perceived wrong?

Of course not, to both questions. Why are you asking me these questions, though? I was simply pointing out that your depiction of this incident as standard wasn't the case. I said nothing more than that.
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29-09-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 10:42 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 10:10 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Statistically one might wonder how many of those owners do not keep their gun in a locker, away from the kids or anyone else, when not in their own purse, pocket, on their hip or locked in the car until they get to the range or hunting ground?

How many keep a loaded gun in the bedside draw, the hall cabinet, in their purse in the living room or bedroom . . . Whilst they are out washing the car, mowing the lawn, having a drink with the neighbour? Takes only a moment to grab a small gun and go.

Have they said what kind of gun it was yet?

It is the sheer numbers plus the chances for the wrong combination of availability and opportunity and a little, maybe temporary, mental instability to make a deadly mix.

All because of a legendary, almost mythical, historical imperative that a nation should have outgrown by now.

A gun is either safely stored or available for use, and misuse. We can't say we have a gun for home defense and also safe that it's safely out of the hands of people who might misuse it.
Exactly, 'Zilla! Thus the statistical possibility that several people, every day, are going to be killed or injured due to a proportion of those millions of guns bring available, through negligence slone, for misuse is high.

This is by no means the first school shooting, in fact there have been over 200 killed and over 400 injured in school shootings in this century alone. Extracted from linked site.

Still a small percentage of all school aged kids but every young life ended or traumatised is a heavy burden that the gunners do not seem to acknowledge adequately.

That it was young kids in a school hits the parent in us, but what of the dead mother or father, the dead policeman, the dead doctor, the dead innocents etc.? They are of equal value.

The dead gunman reaps what he sows, I will not weep for him or her.

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29-09-2016, 11:20 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 10:10 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  
Quote:According to the Geneva-based Small Arms Survey – the leading source of international public information about firearms – the U.S. has the best-armed civilian population in the world, with an estimated 270 million total guns. That’s an average of 89 firearms for every 100 residents — far ahead of Yemen, which comes in second with about 55 firearms for every 100 people, or Switzerland, which is third with 46 guns for every 100 people.

Statistically one might wonder how many of those owners do not keep their gun in a locker, away from the kids or anyone else, when not in their own purse, pocket, on their hip or locked in the car until they get to the range or hunting ground?

How many keep a loaded gun in the bedside draw, the hall cabinet, in their purse in the living room or bedroom . . . Whilst they are out washing the car, mowing the lawn, having a drink with the neighbour? Takes only a moment to grab a small gun and go.

Have they said what kind of gun it was yet?

It is the sheer numbers plus the chances for the wrong combination of availability and opportunity and a little, maybe temporary, mental instability to make a deadly mix.

All because of a legendary, almost mythical, historical imperative that a nation should have outgrown by now.


To be fair, a lot of those firearms are owned by a much smaller percentage of the population than that 88 of 100 perfectly even distribution would appear. Many of those people are collectors or enthusiasts who know their shit. Unfortunately there are also plenty who don't respect the danger their firearms pose, much like many fail to respect the danger their car posses. It's a statistic, and at the surface a frightening one, but also not very useful without further context.

Also, doesn't Switzerland have mandatory military service, and requires that servicemen store their weapons in their home? That helps to explain both their high firearm saturation, and the fact that they're far more likely to have the proper training to store and maintain them.

I agree that it would be great if we'd have been able to outgrown our gun fetishism and fear, but unfortunately we're still fighting for access to contraception and trying to keep creationism out of public schools. So fuck us, right?

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29-09-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 11:20 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 10:10 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Statistically one might wonder how many of those owners do not keep their gun in a locker, away from the kids or anyone else, when not in their own purse, pocket, on their hip or locked in the car until they get to the range or hunting ground?

How many keep a loaded gun in the bedside draw, the hall cabinet, in their purse in the living room or bedroom . . . Whilst they are out washing the car, mowing the lawn, having a drink with the neighbour? Takes only a moment to grab a small gun and go.

Have they said what kind of gun it was yet?

It is the sheer numbers plus the chances for the wrong combination of availability and opportunity and a little, maybe temporary, mental instability to make a deadly mix.

All because of a legendary, almost mythical, historical imperative that a nation should have outgrown by now.


To be fair, a lot of those firearms are owned by a much smaller percentage of the population than that 88 of 100 perfectly even distribution would appear. Many of those people are collectors or enthusiasts who know their shit. Unfortunately there are also plenty who don't respect the danger their firearms pose, much like many fail to respect the danger their car posses. It's a statistic, and at the surface a frightening one, but also not very useful without further context.

Also, doesn't Switzerland have mandatory military service, and requires that servicemen store their weapons in their home? That helps to explain both their high firearm saturation, and the fact that they're far more likely to have the proper training to store and maintain them.

I agree that it would be great if we'd have been able to outgrown our gun fetishism and fear, but unfortunately we're still fighting for access to contraception and trying to keep creationism out of public schools. So fuck us, right?

One gun in every 10 000 not looked after correctly would still be a lot of guns.

And yes, America seems to be a more paradoxical mix of old and new, rational and irrational, than even Britain in many ways. A comparatively short history, a "go-get-'em" attitude, a mixture of many cultures, races and other traditions. A mixture of dedicated adventurers, entrepeneurs, fortune seekers, natives, slaves, refugees, probably even criminals etc during the immigration era. No surprise it is so complex, so diverse and - often - so divided.

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29-09-2016, 02:35 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 10:20 AM)CleverUsername Wrote:  I hope everyone pulls through. As terrible as it is, at least there's hope for them, unlike other shootings. Sad

(28-09-2016 01:48 PM)tomilay Wrote:  My worst nightmare. Far worse than all the terror stories that politicians and media run 24/7. What kind of monster shoots up an elementary school?

Someone with no conscious who wants to follow the quickest route to attention.

Or a 14 year old child who has been homeschooled and apparently hates his dad... dog only knows what's been pumped into that child's head.

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30-09-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 10:42 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 10:10 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Statistically one might wonder how many of those owners do not keep their gun in a locker, away from the kids or anyone else, when not in their own purse, pocket, on their hip or locked in the car until they get to the range or hunting ground?

How many keep a loaded gun in the bedside draw, the hall cabinet, in their purse in the living room or bedroom . . . Whilst they are out washing the car, mowing the lawn, having a drink with the neighbour? Takes only a moment to grab a small gun and go.

Have they said what kind of gun it was yet?

It is the sheer numbers plus the chances for the wrong combination of availability and opportunity and a little, maybe temporary, mental instability to make a deadly mix.

All because of a legendary, almost mythical, historical imperative that a nation should have outgrown by now.

A gun is either safely stored or available for use, and misuse.

We can't say we have a gun for home defense and also safe that it's safely out of the hands of people who might misuse it.

Wrong.
There are fast-access, secure storage devices.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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