School shooting at SC Elementary School
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30-09-2016, 02:28 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(30-09-2016 01:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-09-2016 10:42 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  A gun is either safely stored or available for use, and misuse.

We can't say we have a gun for home defense and also safe that it's safely out of the hands of people who might misuse it.

Wrong.
There are fast-access, secure storage devices.
But it is still up to individual gun owners to bother use such devices each and every time, at home or out of it. Once again the sheer numbers of owners mitigates against 100% responsibility and safe practice. Every accidental gsw is probably an instance of unsafe practice. Dityo some intentiknal ones.

Though there seem to be only about 500 such incidents a year how many times that are the potentials for such incidents? How many guns left around for the kids to get hold of, how many held by untrained or irresponsible people. . . .

Yes, those here might well be trained and/or responsible, how many are not? Estimates vary between 40 and 60 million US households with guns. So, is every single member in every gun owning household a trained or responsible person? And that is just the legal guns.

The stats are not on the side of 100% safe ownership. Cars are unsafe in the wrong hands as well, how many total dickheads are there on the road? I would bet the ratio of lazy, incompetent and unsafe to safe gun owners comes close to that of lazy, incompetent and unsafe to safe drivers - this is human nature after all.

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30-09-2016, 02:59 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
I'm all for stiff penalties for people who do stupid shit. As a gun owner who recognizes gun rights are under fire and people are looking for proverbial ammunition to throw into the debate, I cringe every time someone does something ridiculous.

At any rate, I've been using firearms since I was 10 and have never personally witnessed such an incident, and despite having been on multiple combat deployments I've lost more acquaintances to drunk driving related accidents than gunfire.

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30-09-2016, 03:28 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(30-09-2016 02:59 PM)yakherder Wrote:  I'm all for stiff penalties for people who do stupid shit. As a gun owner who recognizes gun rights are under fire and people are looking for proverbial ammunition to throw into the debate, I cringe every time someone does something ridiculous.

At any rate, I've been using firearms since I was 10 and have never personally witnessed such an incident, and despite having been on multiple combat deployments I've lost more acquaintances to drunk driving related accidents than gunfire.

I hear what you say, yakherder, be nice if every gun owner were as responsible. And I would be more concerned about the hand gunnowners rsther than the long gun ones. As the old saying goes; long gun are good for hunting, handguns are only good for killing.

The stats breakdown of weapon type per deliberate shooting would be interesting.

Wonder how many of those drunk drivers might have been gun owners as well?

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30-09-2016, 03:38 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(30-09-2016 03:28 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  As the old saying goes; long gun are good for hunting, handguns are only good for killing.

At the risk of not taking a serious subject seriously enough, I might add that there are some people who "need killing" (as they used to say in Texas or Wyoming, or maybe both) -- one example being anyone who is trying to kill me. Disclaimer: I don't own a gun and have never felt the need for one -- but I believe handguns do have a legitimate function for self-defense.
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30-09-2016, 03:43 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
Obligatory Canadian chiming in.

Honestly the idea of "gun rights" is very foreign to me. From the way I see it, firearms are primarily manufactured for the purpose of maiming and killing and aren't "tools" - they're weapons that civilian population shouldn't have the "right" to access. If anything it should be a privilege afforded to people like the way a driver's license is.

I mean it wouldn't stop mass shootings, but I'd be willing to bet it would help stem the flow of them. But that's just the way I see things.
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30-09-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
In the US in the month of September alone, seventeen children were killed by firearms, and another sixty-nine were injured by a firearm.

This year to date, in the US, 492 children aged 0 - 11 have been killed or injured, and 2,303 teenagers aged 12 - 17 have been killed or injured by firearms.

—I'll let these figures speak for themselves.

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30-09-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(30-09-2016 02:28 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(30-09-2016 01:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong.
There are fast-access, secure storage devices.
But it is still up to individual gun owners to bother use such devices each and every time, at home or out of it. Once again the sheer numbers of owners mitigates against 100% responsibility and safe practice. Every accidental gsw is probably an instance of unsafe practice. Dityo some intentiknal ones.

Though there seem to be only about 500 such incidents a year how many times that are the potentials for such incidents? How many guns left around for the kids to get hold of, how many held by untrained or irresponsible people. . . .

Yes, those here might well be trained and/or responsible, how many are not? Estimates vary between 40 and 60 million US households with guns. So, is every single member in every gun owning household a trained or responsible person? And that is just the legal guns.

The stats are not on the side of 100% safe ownership. Cars are unsafe in the wrong hands as well, how many total dickheads are there on the road? I would bet the ratio of lazy, incompetent and unsafe to safe gun owners comes close to that of lazy, incompetent and unsafe to safe drivers - this is human nature after all.

Nothing at all in this world is 100% safe. Nothing.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-09-2016, 04:38 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(30-09-2016 04:21 PM)SYZ Wrote:  In the US in the month of September alone, seventeen children were killed by firearms, and another sixty-nine were injured by a firearm.

This year to date, in the US, 492 children aged 0 - 11 have been killed or injured, and 2,303 teenagers aged 12 - 17 have been killed or injured by firearms.

—I'll let these figures speak for themselves.

"On average, 38 children die in hot cars each year from heat-related deaths after being trapped inside motor vehicles. Even the best of parents or caregivers can unknowingly leave a sleeping baby in a car; and the end result can be injury or even death.'

"CDC: Too many children still dying in car crashes. Despite a 43% drop in road crash deaths of children 12 and younger from 2002-2011, more than 9,000 children in that age group died in crashes during that period, says a new report from the CDC."

•Drowning is the leading cause of death for infants and young children between the ages of 1-4 (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2007)
•Drowning is the second-leading cause of unintentional injury deaths in children aged 1-14 years. (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
•In 2007, there were 3,443 fatal unintentional drownings in the United States, averaging ten deaths per day. (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
•A swimming pool is 14 times more likely than a motor vehicle to be involved in the death of a child age 4 and under. (Orange County California Fire Authority)
•Children under five and adolescents between the ages of 15-24 have the highest drowning rates. (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
•Of all preschoolers who drown, 70 percent are in the care of one or both parents at the time of the drowning and 75 percent are missing from sight for five minutes or less. (Orange County, CA, Fire Authority)"

People make mistakes. Sometimes the consequences are fatal, often for their children.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-09-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(30-09-2016 03:43 PM)ViolexTV Wrote:  Obligatory Canadian chiming in.

Honestly the idea of "gun rights" is very foreign to me. From the way I see it, firearms are primarily manufactured for the purpose of maiming and killing and aren't "tools" - they're weapons that civilian population shouldn't have the "right" to access. If anything it should be a privilege afforded to people like the way a driver's license is.

I mean it wouldn't stop mass shootings, but I'd be willing to bet it would help stem the flow of them. But that's just the way I see things.

Firearm ownership is quite common In Canada. I live here as well and have a restricted firearms permit. A lot of the misconception stems simply from contextual differences. Where I grew up back and forth between Alaska and non-urban Washington, not having a firearm would have been irrational. Especially In Alaska. Where we were at, the seasonal store had only a handful of dried goods and the response time for emergency personnel, namely animal control, was unreasonable. Hunting was a necessity and bears occasionally deciding to move into your house was a thing. The same is true for much of Canada outside the metropolitan areas lining the Canadian/US border.

In the states I do carry for protection, but that's a different debate I don't feel like repeating here. There are, nonetheless, applications for firearms that are critical to civilians with no intention of ever using them on another human. Maybe not in your bubble, but in some parts of mine.

That said, there is an admittedly less aggressive gun rights community in Canada. They just don't make the news much, and they're probably not within your social circle. There is currently an ongoing fight regarding a regulation that was just passed without announcement banning a certain type of common magazine, thereby immediately turning a bunch of responsible Canadian gun owners into criminals without their knowledge.

'Murican Canadian
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30-09-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
Ain't got a problem with guns for hunting. Maybe an argument for protection too, but you gotta start implementing more thorough testing and training people to be responsible, imo.

I'm mostly commenting on the cultural difference with the American idea of firearms being something like a birthright, even toys. That's frightening, honestly.
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