Schrodinger's cat
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03-04-2017, 08:35 PM
RE: Schrodinger's cat
(03-04-2017 06:42 PM)pablo Wrote:  Doesn't it show how observation influences outcome?

No, it shows that Schrodinger thought that absurd.

Quote:This thought experiment highlights the implications that accepting uncertainty at the microscopic level has on macroscopic objects. A cat is put in a sealed box, with its life or death made dependent on the state of a subatomic particle. Thus a description of the cat during the course of the experiment—having been entangled with the state of a subatomic particle—becomes a "blur" of "living and dead cat." But this can't be accurate because it implies the cat is actually both dead and alive until the box is opened to check on it. But the cat, if it survives, will only remember being alive. Schrödinger resists "so naively accepting as valid a 'blurred model' for representing reality." How can the cat be both alive and dead?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-04-2017, 10:30 PM
RE: Schrodinger's cat
(03-04-2017 08:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-04-2017 06:42 PM)pablo Wrote:  Doesn't it show how observation influences outcome?

No, it shows that Schrodinger thought that absurd.

Quote:This thought experiment highlights the implications that accepting uncertainty at the microscopic level has on macroscopic objects. A cat is put in a sealed box, with its life or death made dependent on the state of a subatomic particle. Thus a description of the cat during the course of the experiment—having been entangled with the state of a subatomic particle—becomes a "blur" of "living and dead cat." But this can't be accurate because it implies the cat is actually both dead and alive until the box is opened to check on it. But the cat, if it survives, will only remember being alive. Schrödinger resists "so naively accepting as valid a 'blurred model' for representing reality." How can the cat be both alive and dead?

I'll be damned, I always thought the whole thing didn't quite make sense, that's why. Consider

The more you know...

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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04-04-2017, 02:48 AM
RE: Schrodinger's cat
I don't understand QM hardly at all yet. But what I do know is that we are only able to analyse and model our observations of reality, and not strictly speaking reality itself. (I believe this was Kant vs Einstein?) So even if the observation we will eventually get is somehow "undecided" until we take it, that doesn't mean the reality it represents is also necessarily undecided.

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04-04-2017, 09:36 AM
RE: Schrodinger's cat
(04-04-2017 02:48 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I don't understand QM hardly at all yet. But what I do know is that we are only able to analyse and model our observations of reality, and not strictly speaking reality itself. (I believe this was Kant vs Einstein?) So even if the observation we will eventually get is somehow "undecided" until we take it, that doesn't mean the reality it represents is also necessarily undecided.

Direct perception of reality is not an option. Like by definition.

#sigh
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04-04-2017, 11:55 AM
RE: Schrodinger's cat
I think and I could be wrong that Schrodinger's Cat referred to the uncertainty principle.

Introduced first in 1927, by the German physicist Werner Heisenberg, it states that the more precisely the position of some particle is determined, the less precisely its momentum can be known, and vice versa.

Any attempt to measure precisely the velocity of a subatomic particle, such as an electron, will knock it about in an unpredictable way, so that a simultaneous measurement of its position has no validity.

The very process of trying to determine something about it, alters it.

Imagine if you are blind and trying to determine what a person looks like by punching him in the face. Each punch alters what he looks like and also alters his position, thus making it uncertain.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-04-2017, 01:23 PM
RE: Schrodinger's cat
(04-04-2017 11:55 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Imagine if you are blind and trying to determine what a person looks like by punching him in the face. Each punch alters what he looks like and also alters his position, thus making it uncertain.

Plus you can find out what kind of temperment he has at the same time.

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04-04-2017, 01:34 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2017 01:43 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Schrodinger's cat
(03-04-2017 08:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-04-2017 06:42 PM)pablo Wrote:  Doesn't it show how observation influences outcome?

No, it shows that Schrodinger thought that absurd.

Illustration:

Chas is the face of TTAF.

I wanna hate this guy. He is kinda the anti-me. But as far as atheism is concerned, he ranks up there with St. Hitch. PBUH.

Mofo cuts through the absurd. Chas says theology is the empty set. Lesser theologians might be upset that he thus invalidates their life's work... for myself, he validates it, and I embrace it.

I will stand as the least theologian. Never did get that whole "higher, greater bit..."
back to earth...

Yeah, it was basically an egghead discussion; Schrodinger's cat. Ain't about nothing other than eggheads arguing whose spheroid is more oblate.

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04-04-2017, 01:42 PM
RE: Schrodinger's cat
(04-04-2017 02:48 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I don't understand QM hardly at all yet.

Ain't no. Feynman famously declared that "no one understands QM" and what he was actually referencing was the fact that the mathematics involved is so esoteric and oblique that it quite literally defies explanation.

Explain this:
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I "can't do it so a sixth grader could understand it" so I accept my failure. Where do you stand?

It's not so much about intellectual arrogance so much as seeing the world in a whole different light. I don't see it under that illumination, I go on about my Gwynnies. Heart

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04-04-2017, 02:13 PM
RE: Schrodinger's cat
The extremely lovely and wonderful Jim Al-Khalili (coincidentally, ex-head of the British Humanist Organisation) has a kiddies' book on QM, though. Gotta love the guy, really!

(I think he has other books on QM, like a guide for the perplexed or sth. like this. He is awesome, really Heart )

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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04-04-2017, 02:20 PM
RE: Schrodinger's cat
(04-04-2017 02:13 PM)Vera Wrote:  The extremely lovely and wonderful Jim Al-Khalili (coincidentally, ex-head of the British Humanist Organisation) has a kiddies' book on QM, though. Gotta love the guy, really!

(I think he has other books on QM, like a guide for the perplexed or sth. like this. He is awesome, really Heart )

W=TF*TF. Smile

#sigh
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