Science... Phooey!
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21-12-2014, 10:57 AM
RE: Science... Phooey!
(21-12-2014 10:07 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 10:04 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Although his ideas should more probably be categorised as pseudoscience, what do you think of the basic implied tenet that all the 'dogmas' of science should be continually scrutinised?

I think we'll find that scientists are generally pretty good at continually challenging their processes and conclusions, but....

Will never challenge science itself.

That is, there is seemingly an unexamined assumption, a matter of faith, that more knowledge is always better.

This is a very understandable belief, given that a "more is better" relationship with knowledge has been valid through all of human history. But we live in revolutionary times, so...

Example: For all of human history a "more is better" relationship with food was valid, as humans typically lived on the edge of starvation, and were just one crop failure away from disaster.

But now, millions of people are dying of too much food, so the old reliable "more is better" relationship with food now has to be questioned.

I think about the same process is underway in our relationship with knowledge, ie. science. We're reaching a point where more is no longer always better.

That's an interesting example.

There is an "unexamined assumption, a matter of faith, that" human life is worth preserving.

Are we not reaching a point where accommodating more and longer living people is not necessarily a good thing?

Consider

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21-12-2014, 11:18 AM
RE: Science... Phooey!
(20-12-2014 10:57 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 10:19 AM)pablo Wrote:  I thought that was what did happen.
I remember Lawrence Krauss saying that was how you get famous as a scientist, by taking someones else's accepted work and proving it wrong.

So who's working on recalculating the speed of light right now?

Big Grin

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21-12-2014, 11:28 AM
RE: Science... Phooey!
(21-12-2014 10:57 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Are we not reaching a point where accommodating more and longer living people is not necessarily a good thing?

Don't forget to factor in that these more and more people also have greater and greater expectations. To see the full extent of the challenge, multiply the growing number of people by their ever greater expectations.

People in the rich countries consume something like 50 times more resources than the poorest people.

In the past the poor people resigned themselves to being poor, but now they can see us on the village TV, and they want to be like us too. Who can blame them?

More people is only part of the problem, the smaller part. Ten billion poor people might work. Ten billion rich people? No way.

The fundamental problem is that human desire is infinite, whereas the planet's resources are finite.
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21-12-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: Science... Phooey!
I didn't watch much beyond his intro, and these kinda premises were once valid. They were true strikes against science and the scientific world especially pre-20th century.

In manners of the old ways being these are the answers of questions, belief them as the scientific way.

Opposed to scientific fields mainly accepting the idea now of these are the processes to study and examine, continue doing them to keep getting the results you can work with.

I will agree if you are arguing that the presumption that life/human sentient life is a good thing worth preserving. That is undoubtedly our self preserving bias that science generally accepts to work around, at least not all fields do. Some quality astrophysicists acknowledge how meaningless we are.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-12-2014, 04:38 PM
RE: Science... Phooey!
(21-12-2014 11:28 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  ...
In the past the poor people resigned themselves to being poor, but now they can see us on the village TV, and they want to be like us too. Who can blame them?
...

Speaking as on of the poor people (relatively speaking), I am coming to eat your new-born! Evil_monster

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21-12-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: Science... Phooey!
(21-12-2014 03:18 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I didn't watch much beyond his intro, and these kinda premises were once valid. They were true strikes against science and the scientific world especially pre-20th century.

In manners of the old ways being these are the answers of questions, belief them as the scientific way.

Opposed to scientific fields mainly accepting the idea now of these are the processes to study and examine, continue doing them to keep getting the results you can work with.

I will agree if you are arguing that the presumption that life/human sentient life is a good thing worth preserving. That is undoubtedly our self preserving bias that science generally accepts to work around, at least not all fields do. Some quality astrophysicists acknowledge how meaningless we are.

Your sentence construction has me a little stumped there but I think I get what you mean.

What do non-quality astrophysicists think?

Wink

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21-12-2014, 07:12 PM
RE: Science... Phooey!
Science is only a method for ascertaining the nature of something, and while that method as far as I know has never been bested, it does have its limits.

Let's say a DVD with someone's Excel spreadsheet of a budget on it falls through a wormhole into the most advanced scientific laboratory of 1853. A budget on a spreadsheet (ledger page) was nothing alien in 1853. The scientists will fairly quickly determine what the DVD is made out of, but it will require human imagination to hypothesize that what it's for is analogous to a book, that it is a medium containing information. There's little about a DVD in 1853 to suggest its purpose. That leap of imagination isn't, strictly speaking, science - it's very much vital to science and you can't begin science without it, but it isn't the science, it isn't the method of discernment.

And in 1853, it would require fantastic imagination to hypothesize the full nature of that DVD - that it could only be "read" by some other device, that (if their pattern is even detectable) the pits are a binary encoding, that what's encoded itself can only be "interpreted" by another device, and, most difficult of all, to hypothesize that something that bizarre and complicated is nothing more than someone's budget on a spreadsheet.

I don't think the best science, in 1853, would ever be able to fully describe that DVD, even guided by outrageous imagination.

Or, in other words, that what we can know is limited by what we do know.

So if science is incomplete without the spark of human imagination, it is also incomplete in that it can't help discover what lies beyond our comprehension.

Not yet. But I have faith we may discover the means to overcome that limitation, and it won't come by faith but by science.
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21-12-2014, 07:18 PM
RE: Science... Phooey!
(21-12-2014 07:12 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Not yet. But I have faith we may discover the means to overcome that limitation, and it won't come by faith but by science.

Great post, good job.

Thank you for expressing your faith in science. :-)
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21-12-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: Science... Phooey!
(20-12-2014 10:57 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 10:19 AM)pablo Wrote:  I thought that was what did happen.
I remember Lawrence Krauss saying that was how you get famous as a scientist, by taking someones else's accepted work and proving it wrong.

So who's working on recalculating the speed of light right now?

Big Grin

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/11/1...rino-test/

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-17560379

How ' bout you do that ?

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21-12-2014, 08:01 PM
RE: Science... Phooey!
(20-12-2014 11:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  ALSO we faked the Moon landings but shhhhh... don't tell anyone...

Too late. My brother-in-law already knows about the faked moon landing, and he's got a big mouth. After all, why haven't we been back? Also, some guy with a telescope can't see any evidence... Facepalm

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