Science and Eden
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08-09-2016, 08:19 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2016 08:29 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Science and Eden
(08-09-2016 03:45 PM)Dworkin Wrote:  
(08-09-2016 03:02 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  It really is over before it gets started. Debate assumes there is an objective truth to reach but theism assumes a subjective universe. There's not even any basis for a debate.

ts,

I'm not sure that the theist cannot claim that "God exists" is a matter of objective truth. They might be wrong in this claim of course, but that is something else.

D.

Well yes they can claim that, but not without contradicting themselves. The claim that "God exists" tries to integrate two contradictory metaphysical claims, i.e., two claims about the nature of reality. They don't know they are contradicting themselves but that doesn't change anything. Saying that God exists contradicts itself just as saying that there are square circles and for the same reason. Debating the existence of God results in concept stealing on a grand scale on their part. Saying God exists is saying it's objectively true that there's no such thing as objectivity.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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08-09-2016, 08:52 PM
RE: Science and Eden
@Dworkin

I don't see much logic there. Wager is pure idiocy - believe in (my, not any of hundrex gods humans creayed) god or else. It's just faith (as there is no proof for god existence) mixed with lie about not losing something in choosing belief.

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The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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10-09-2016, 02:35 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(08-09-2016 04:06 PM)kim Wrote:  Some just want the illusion to be real, while others are certain that it is.
Faith is certainty - absolute certainty.
Life doesn't get more secure than that.

Why you gonna mess with someone's security, you bastard atheist? Wink

kim,

Of course this cuts both ways. There is a good deal of security in the atheist belief, provided that the atheist does not waver in absolute certainty.

As an agnostic I do not have such comfort. There is always the lurking possibility that a vengeful and jealous God will be waiting for me on the other side! Hobo I sincerely hope that there isn't, but I just don't have the certainty.

If you will permit - Why you gonna mess with someone's security, you bastard theist?

D.
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10-09-2016, 02:46 AM
RE: Science and Eden
Ha ... nothing is or has ever been, certain.

Death & taxes, not withstanding Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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10-09-2016, 03:23 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(10-09-2016 02:46 AM)kim Wrote:  Ha ... nothing is or has ever been, certain.

Death & taxes, not withstanding Wink

Thumbsup

D.
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10-09-2016, 03:29 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(08-09-2016 08:19 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Saying God exists is saying it's objectively true that there's no such thing as objectivity.

ts,

You've lost me, but not my interest.

Could you offer a little more elucidation?

D.
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10-09-2016, 05:19 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(10-09-2016 03:29 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  
(08-09-2016 08:19 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Saying God exists is saying it's objectively true that there's no such thing as objectivity.

ts,

You've lost me, but not my interest.

Could you offer a little more elucidation?

D.

It means they have no intellectual right to debate, given the ideas they accept with their God belief. Debate is all about getting to some objective truth and there is no such thing as objective truth in their system of belief because everything is the product of a supernatural mind, it is all subjective.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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10-09-2016, 11:42 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(10-09-2016 05:19 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It means they have no intellectual right to debate, given the ideas they accept with their God belief. Debate is all about getting to some objective truth and there is no such thing as objective truth in their system of belief because everything is the product of a supernatural mind, it is all subjective.

ts,

Aaah, yes. This could be along the lines of Bishop Berkeley's theory of Idealism. I think that Berkeley's idea (no pun intended) is that all of reality is in the mind of God. This would fit with your notion of the "product of a supernatural mind".

I never bought into Berkeley's arguments, but I would concede that if it were true, then the case would be an objective fact, however unpalatable if we became aware of it. This makes me think of the Matrix trilogy for some reason, although that is a Cartesian thought experiment.

D.
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11-09-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Science and Eden
(10-09-2016 11:42 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  
(10-09-2016 05:19 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It means they have no intellectual right to debate, given the ideas they accept with their God belief. Debate is all about getting to some objective truth and there is no such thing as objective truth in their system of belief because everything is the product of a supernatural mind, it is all subjective.

ts,

Aaah, yes. This could be along the lines of Bishop Berkeley's theory of Idealism. I think that Berkeley's idea (no pun intended) is that all of reality is in the mind of God. This would fit with your notion of the "product of a supernatural mind".

I never bought into Berkeley's arguments, but I would concede that if it were true, then the case would be an objective fact, however unpalatable if we became aware of it. This makes me think of the Matrix trilogy for some reason, although that is a Cartesian thought experiment.

D.

Actually, it would lead to a contradiction: a consciousness with nothing to be conscious of. This is the theists starting point, a consciousness in a void. It should be laughed at, not treated as a possibility. They have no basis on which to debate anything, and this should be pointed out to them. If they were to be consistent, they should not enter into any debates.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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11-09-2016, 07:27 PM
RE: Science and Eden
(10-09-2016 05:19 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It means they have no intellectual right to debate, given the ideas they accept with their God belief. [...]

Yep... all too often the theist's logic [sic] revolves around: because = God.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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