Science and Eden
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16-09-2016, 02:07 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(11-09-2016 07:20 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Actually, it would lead to a contradiction: a consciousness with nothing to be conscious of. This is the theists starting point, a consciousness in a void. It should be laughed at, not treated as a possibility.

ts,

As Wittgenstein remarked, "What we cannot speak about, we must pass over in silence".

I find solipsism to be a subject of debate not without interest, particularly in relation to God concepts, but it doesn't go anywhere IMHO.

D.
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16-09-2016, 02:19 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(16-09-2016 02:07 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  I find solipsism to be a subject of debate not without interest, particularly in relation to God concepts, but it doesn't go anywhere IMHO.

It doesn't go anywhere because it can't go anywhere. It is an interesting thought experiment for about an afternoon (much like libertarianism). Once you realize that it's an epistemological dead end, you drop it in favor of something else that actually gets shit done. I prefer evidentialism.

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16-09-2016, 02:28 AM
RE: Science and Eden
Coming late into this thread and have not read all posts.

I wondered about the temptation thing several times when noticing that theists coming onto atheist forums to "debate" rarely do so. They mostly refute what atheists say in terms of their original agenda, totally ignore points they cannot answer in terms of that agenda or divert to another reiteration that, initially, seems a non-sequitur but soon gets back on track.

Do some actually come onto opposing forums mainly to challenge or test their own faith? Quite obviously some merely want to troll or stir.

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16-09-2016, 02:51 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(08-09-2016 12:42 PM)Dworkin Wrote:  It seems, if the above is a correct assessment, that any debate between theists and atheists is over. What else is there?


To be fair, I do have a surefire debate killer. Refuse to move on until the theist can supply a falsifiable definition for their god. An unfalisfable definition is meaningless, making further discussion as pointless as arguing over which invisible pink unicorn created the Andromeda galaxy, or who has the better looking imaginary best friend.

Keep sticking to that point, do not move past it. Every single debate grinds to a halt. They eventually get flustered or frustrated and leave. Very rarely if they keep at it they might have that epiphany where everything lines up just right, and they finally realize for the first time what an incomprehensible load of bills they were sold.

When that does happen, it's so good. Rare, but really good.

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16-09-2016, 03:53 PM
RE: Science and Eden
(16-09-2016 02:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(16-09-2016 02:07 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  I find solipsism to be a subject of debate not without interest, particularly in relation to God concepts, but it doesn't go anywhere IMHO.

It doesn't go anywhere because it can't go anywhere. It is an interesting thought experiment for about an afternoon (much like libertarianism). Once you realize that it's an epistemological dead end, you drop it in favor of something else that actually gets shit done. I prefer evidentialism.

ek,

I like your thinking. The patterns in logic don't go anywhere, but that does not mean that there is nothing to learn. The comforts of deduction are tautologous, but the appearance of such patterns is evidential.

D.
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18-09-2016, 07:09 PM
RE: Science and Eden
(16-09-2016 02:07 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  
(11-09-2016 07:20 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Actually, it would lead to a contradiction: a consciousness with nothing to be conscious of. This is the theists starting point, a consciousness in a void. It should be laughed at, not treated as a possibility.

ts,

As Wittgenstein remarked, "What we cannot speak about, we must pass over in silence".

I find solipsism to be a subject of debate not without interest, particularly in relation to God concepts, but it doesn't go anywhere IMHO.

D.

Yep, that's what they begin with as a starting point, divine solipsism. I prefer to name it the fallacy of pure self-reference. Either way, as you say, it goes nowhere. It is a non-starter of a starting point.

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23-09-2016, 01:58 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(16-09-2016 02:28 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Coming late into this thread and have not read all posts.

I wondered about the temptation thing several times when noticing that theists coming onto atheist forums to "debate" rarely do so. They mostly refute what atheists say in terms of their original agenda, totally ignore points they cannot answer in terms of that agenda or divert to another reiteration that, initially, seems a non-sequitur but soon gets back on track.

Do some actually come onto opposing forums mainly to challenge or test their own faith? Quite obviously some merely want to troll or stir.

Gloucester,

I enjoy debating both theists and atheists. When on a theist forum I tend to gently criticise in order to inspire lively debate and see what they have to offer. On an atheist forum it will be the other way.

There is no trolling intended. If the debates are not interesting and productive, why bother? I do agree with you that debating theists and atheists is a test of my agnosticism. Maybe I'll read a post one day and exclaim - goodness me, there is God! Or alternatively - goodness me, there is no God!

But, joining a debating forum and posting "I agree with everyone here" just seems a prescription for very short threads. Drinking Beverage

D.
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23-09-2016, 02:57 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(08-09-2016 12:42 PM)Dworkin Wrote:  Hi,

A program on BBC radio last night was about the garden of Eden. It clarified an issue for me regarding Christian theists and rational, fact based, debate.

We are asked: why should we think that Christians do not accept the bible? If we think that Christians do accept the bible, then (at least metaphorically) they believe that the serpent tempted Eve in the garden. Translating this to the present day, why should they not think that anything that an unbeliever presents to them against their faith is not another temptation to that same evil?

This to me, is the irreconcilable difference between atheists and theists. It is not just that the theists see atheists as wrong, but much more than that. Theists see atheists as the very voice of the demon, tempting them with the shiny, but rotten, apple yet again and threatening them with the existential loss of everything that they hold dear, the immortal soul. For the committed Christian, the immortal soul will be the only thing of real value in this whole, infected, suffering, cosmos (as they see it).

It seems, if the above is a correct assessment, that any debate between theists and atheists is over. What else is there?

D.

The difference is not irreconcilable. Yes, theists and especially theist leaders devote a lot of time and energy to demonizing atheists, but not every theist is totally swayed by the rhetoric. Simply by being a normal human being and being friendly, and especially not doing what theists do - proselytizing - theists can see that atheists are not a threat. Theism makes no real sense, so every theist (IMO) experiences some level of cognitive dissonance. All of the demonization is devoted to the idea that the theist in question can force themselves to believe, which is much easier if they fear knowledge, the consequences of knowledge and people who think differently. If they become aware that the fear-mongering of their pastor is exactly that, some (not all) will dare to question further. From there it indeed is a slippery slope all the way from "I believe" to "What the Fuck?"

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-09-2016, 02:59 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(23-09-2016 01:58 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  
(16-09-2016 02:28 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Coming late into this thread and have not read all posts.

I wondered about the temptation thing several times when noticing that theists coming onto atheist forums to "debate" rarely do so. They mostly refute what atheists say in terms of their original agenda, totally ignore points they cannot answer in terms of that agenda or divert to another reiteration that, initially, seems a non-sequitur but soon gets back on track.

Do some actually come onto opposing forums mainly to challenge or test their own faith? Quite obviously some merely want to troll or stir.

Gloucester,

I enjoy debating both theists and atheists. When on a theist forum I tend to gently criticise in order to inspire lively debate and see what they have to offer. On an atheist forum it will be the other way.

There is no trolling intended. If the debates are not interesting and productive, why bother? I do agree with you that debating theists and atheists is a test of my agnosticism. Maybe I'll read a post one day and exclaim - goodness me, there is God! Or alternatively - goodness me, there is no God!

But, joining a debating forum and posting "I agree with everyone here" just seems a prescription for very short threads. Drinking Beverage

D.

Ve shall beat you with our atheist stick - it's stronger than your agnos stick Tongue

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-09-2016, 03:24 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(23-09-2016 02:59 AM)morondog Wrote:  Ve shall beat you with our atheist stick - it's stronger than your agnos stick Tongue

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