Science and Eden
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24-09-2016, 02:32 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(23-09-2016 02:57 AM)morondog Wrote:  The difference is not irreconcilable. Yes, theists and especially theist leaders devote a lot of time and energy to demonizing atheists, but not every theist is totally swayed by the rhetoric. Simply by being a normal human being and being friendly, and especially not doing what theists do - proselytizing - theists can see that atheists are not a threat. Theism makes no real sense, so every theist (IMO) experiences some level of cognitive dissonance. All of the demonization is devoted to the idea that the theist in question can force themselves to believe, which is much easier if they fear knowledge, the consequences of knowledge and people who think differently. If they become aware that the fear-mongering of their pastor is exactly that, some (not all) will dare to question further. From there it indeed is a slippery slope all the way from "I believe" to "What the Fuck?"

morondog,

Maybe the 'irreconcilable' is not about rhetoric or making sense.

I am an agnostic in a deeper way than some might suppose. At some points in my life I have felt the presence (OK q taking the p***) of what I would call divinity. At other points it is gone. The change is like a switch, definite and complete.

There is an analogy with drugs. When we are straight we cannot imagine what being high is like, when we are high we cannot imagine what being straight is like. These conditions are 'irreconcilable' in the mind. It is also like this with being in love. Love can be a kind of passion which changes our whole being. There is no doubting it.

IMHO this is what happens with devout believers; they are impassioned and high with religion. We see it all the time in American evangelists, Muslim fundamentalists and others. Verbal debates with these people are totally useless.

I've seen both sides, and conclude that I don't now what is going on. When I felt divinity there was no cognitive dissonance, only a sense of great peace and reconciliation. It didn't last and has not returned in recent years. I'm reconciled to that, but suspect a change might come near to my death.

Anyway, I'd better shut up, because I really like it here and don't want to get chucked off the forum. Facepalm

D.
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24-09-2016, 04:38 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(24-09-2016 02:32 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  I've seen both sides, and conclude that I don't now what is going on. When I felt divinity there was no cognitive dissonance, only a sense of great peace and reconciliation. It didn't last and has not returned in recent years. I'm reconciled to that, but suspect a change might come near to my death.
The quiet of a shady grove, or of a cathedral - there is no one who does not recognize this feeling I think. "Holiness" if I can term it that. At times I have managed to convince myself I feel the presence of something. I am easily fooled. By myself Tongue

Quote:Anyway, I'd better shut up, because I really like it here and don't want to get chucked off the forum. Facepalm
Well, you won't be chucked out. But what might happen is... if you got too evangelical about your agnosticism we might give you enough grief that you decided to leave. It's somewhat unfortunate but I have seen it done before. Even contributed. However, you don't seem to be an evangelist so I think you'll be fine. I got no problem personally with people holding different views, just if you for example told me that atheism is illogical and to acheive true understanding I must be some kind of pure agnostic (I subscribe to agnostic atheism) then I consider you fair game to argue with.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-09-2016, 10:47 AM
RE: Science and Eden
(24-09-2016 04:38 AM)morondog Wrote:  Well, you won't be chucked out. But what might happen is... if you got too evangelical about your agnosticism we might give you enough grief that you decided to leave. It's somewhat unfortunate but I have seen it done before. Even contributed. However, you don't seem to be an evangelist so I think you'll be fine. I got no problem personally with people holding different views, just if you for example told me that atheism is illogical and to acheive true understanding I must be some kind of pure agnostic (I subscribe to agnostic atheism) then I consider you fair game to argue with.

morondog

Fair doos. Smile I got some saving graces. 1) There is no described theistic God that I would choose to brush up against. 2) Atheism is a logical and empirical response to our condition as it stands. 3) Evangelising? I'm with Kerouac - "All I have to offer the world is my own confusion."

I like your last point "..fair game to argue with". Of course, anyone on an internet forum will be fair game for that royal sport. Smile Its what we do.

D. Bowing
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24-09-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: Science and Eden
(24-09-2016 10:47 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  I like your last point "..fair game to argue with". Of course, anyone on an internet forum will be fair game for that royal sport. Smile Its what we do.

For me the defining characteristic of evangelicals of any stripe (including atheists) is that they're taken aback and rather miffed when people contradict them, and usually storm off in high dudgeon after a few rounds Big Grin They're there to *tell* us the good news, argument is not in their game plan.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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