Science disproving Miracles question
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05-04-2013, 08:56 AM
Science disproving Miracles question
Hello I am new to the forum today being my first day. This morning I was having a debate with a fella about Miracles. His belief was that if it cannot be explained by science then it is a miracle. I was trying to recite miracles that science has disproved in the past 100 years and I was drawing a blank and had no luck researching the matter.(Was sure where to look). I am trying to gain more knowledge about this subject and more regarding atheism, evolution, religion ect. I like to debate but I need to sharpen my tools in order to take on such a task. But could someone help me with this issue.

thank you.
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05-04-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: Science disproving Miracles question
Ask your debate friend whether a man from the Renaissance would consider flying to be a miracle, or riding in a horseless buggy at over a hundred miles per hour, or having surgery to replace your heart with a machine that pumps your blood, or watching moving pictures on a box in your living room that lets you see recording of plays long after the actors finished acting, or being able to pick up a device smaller than your hand and use it to talk to any person anywhere in the world, or people working in buildings that thousands of feet tall, or...

All these simple things that we have in our life today would have seemed like miracles to a person just a couple hundred years ago.

I bet if Penn & Teller could hop in a time machine and go back even just a couple hundred years and perform the same act they do in Las Vegas today, they would be branded as warlocks in league with the devil, or miracle workers.

The point is that modern science, engineering, and technology have replaced yesterdays miracles. Your friend says that anything that cannot be explained by science is a miracle, but look at all the simple things Renaissance man could not explain that today we take for granted.

Imagine what a man a hundred years from now will think about some of the things that your friend would, today, call "miracles".

There are a lot of specific miracles that turn out to be hoaxes, like crying statues of the Madonna, or bleeding palms of statues of Jesus, etc. The Catholic church takes a very serious approach to all genuine claims of miracles and they send a team of skeptical investigators to try to disprove all such claims. They almost always succeed at disproving them (a famous hoax was a statue of Mary that cried every evening, but it turned out her tears were vegetable oil and some clever plumbing was used to make the statue weep this oil).

I'm sure there are plenty of sites on the web that discuss this stuff.

Click this link

Tongue

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05-04-2013, 12:50 PM
RE: Science disproving Miracles question
Arguments like this are easy to derail. It's called the God of the Gaps argument and Neil DeGrasse Tyson has a wonderful line to deal with it.

"If that's how you want to invoke your evidence for God, then god is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that is getting smaller and smaller every day"

Of course, they'll probably just cite some unverifiable "miracle" that totally happened to their brother's uncle's cousin's former room mate.
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05-04-2013, 03:00 PM
RE: Science disproving Miracles question
^What they all said.

Just because he doesn't have an explanation, doesn't mean it cannot be explained eventually.

Unexplained =/= unexplainable.

Also, a lot of so-called miracles are personal religious experiences, and for some reason, people think their perception is infallible, and it's not. Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence, either. Some people lie, some people exaggerate, many people remember things differently than they occurred (which is why security cams are preferable to eyewitness testimony, because memory can be unreliable).

Quote:I like to debate but I need to sharpen my tools in order to take on such a task. But could someone help me with this issue.
Try googling "logical fallacies." You run into a lot of these with many theists.
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05-04-2013, 08:42 PM
RE: Science disproving Miracles question
(05-04-2013 08:56 AM)Citizen_Atheist Wrote:  Hello I am new to the forum today being my first day. This morning I was having a debate with a fella about Miracles. His belief was that if it cannot be explained by science then it is a miracle. I was trying to recite miracles that science has disproved in the past 100 years and I was drawing a blank and had no luck researching the matter.(Was sure where to look). I am trying to gain more knowledge about this subject and more regarding atheism, evolution, religion ect. I like to debate but I need to sharpen my tools in order to take on such a task. But could someone help me with this issue.

thank you.

Its kind of silly to discuss miracles this way, is there a specific miracle he mentioned?

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05-04-2013, 09:24 PM
RE: Science disproving Miracles question
Absolutely awesome responses, I am glad I joined this forum. I run into these debates every week and I want to be able to combat these things. I look at men like Dawkins, Hitchens, Tyson and appreciate how they can shut down ignorance with reason and intellect. Now I am off to research, thanks for the info!
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05-04-2013, 10:03 PM
RE: Science disproving Miracles question
(05-04-2013 09:24 PM)Citizen_Atheist Wrote:  I run into these debates every week and I want to be able to combat these things.

There is always a flying knee to the head. After he comes to, you can always say "Its a miracle I didn't knock more teeth out". Big Grin








No, I'm not advocating violence, its just a joke...really. Please don't make me go back to Anger Management training Weeping

"Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's."- Mark Twain in Eruption
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06-04-2013, 01:52 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2013 01:55 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Science disproving Miracles question
I would tend to come at it from the other direction: What is the best miracle approved by the Catholic church for example, and is it credible?

Here's one list: http://www.miraclesofthechurch.com/

Now consider:
1. What message do we think God was trying to communicate in each of these cases?
2. Is the testimony reliable?
3. Do alternative explanations exist for the reported phenomena?
4. Is there any way God could have communicated his message more clearly (if so, then he made a mistake and this sure wasn't from God... Wink?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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06-04-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: Science disproving Miracles question
(05-04-2013 10:03 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(05-04-2013 09:24 PM)Citizen_Atheist Wrote:  I run into these debates every week and I want to be able to combat these things.

There is always a flying knee to the head. After he comes to, you can always say "Its a miracle I didn't knock more teeth out". Big Grin








No, I'm not advocating violence, its just a joke...really. Please don't make me go back to Anger Management training Weeping

Yes nad there is always that. haha
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06-04-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: Science disproving Miracles question
(05-04-2013 08:42 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(05-04-2013 08:56 AM)Citizen_Atheist Wrote:  Hello I am new to the forum today being my first day. This morning I was having a debate with a fella about Miracles. His belief was that if it cannot be explained by science then it is a miracle. I was trying to recite miracles that science has disproved in the past 100 years and I was drawing a blank and had no luck researching the matter.(Was sure where to look). I am trying to gain more knowledge about this subject and more regarding atheism, evolution, religion ect. I like to debate but I need to sharpen my tools in order to take on such a task. But could someone help me with this issue.

thank you.

Its kind of silly to discuss miracles this way, is there a specific miracle he mentioned?

He worked with alot of sick people so I am assuming he is talking about people who have gotten better or something along those lines.
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