Science is Dead
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24-06-2012, 07:32 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 04:14 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You are now inventing your own meaning for words. That is going to make it almost impossible for you to communicate.

Interestingly, there are some similarities between what you say about "God" and what some gnostics believed. They thought to understand oneself allowed one to discover "god." Knowledge of self (gnosis) resurrected us out of ignorance. It was quite an interesting, sophisticated philosophy. Unfortunately Catholics (in league with the Roman government) suppressed them and destroyed their writings.


Hi Mark. Was worried about you and the quake. Glad yer ok. (Should have checked the map).

re the Linguistic thingy. Ain't only him. It's all of em. (Dawkins to Pell) > "Whatever you mean by those words in the English language, it's not what everyone else means, when they say them".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-06-2012, 09:11 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 05:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  Egor has changed a lot recently. Mainly, he has pulled away from religion. I'm finding it slightly difficult to keep up with where his thinking is at. I'm gonna give my potted history but please bear in mind I don't know this stuff for certain, when I talk about how he was thinking it's my impression. Hopefully you won't take it as insulting Egor Smile

When he first came to this forum he was a Christian. Very much a fundamentalist. He always had his own interpretation of the Bible - initially it was that the Gospels were divinely inspired truth and the rest was sort of... extra junk which might have a tad of divine inspiration but was mostly confusing.

He had a website where he posted lots of anti atheist stuff - a bit similar to conservapedia. That level.

Anyway, he sort of drifted in and out of the forum, then a few months later he came back here and told us that he was now a Veridican - his own offshoot branch of Christianity, with his own Gospel, written by himself, a synthesis of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Thomas. He reworked his website, it was interesting, he had forum reviews and book reviews - a lot of work went into it, and his forum reviews were quite fair and balanced - odd but true. He reviewed this place positively.

Egor's always been kinda macho. He's not above mudslinging and he can be nasty sometimes. When he first came here I think he saw things in terms of "winning the debate"... you know... battling the noisome atheists for Christ. He still seems to struggle to deal with people who have an alternate opinion... Still chucks in the odd ad hominem and still is fairly graceless even when people are being nice Tongue These are personality traits, very difficult to change. Anyway, for this reason there are many who react badly to him, and you can't really fault them for that.

But he's an interesting guy. Like I said, initially he was so fundamentalist seeming we thought he'd never change. He seemed to be here only to berate us, for whatever reason. But subsequently the Veridican thing... he broke completely with mainstream Christianity. That was interesting. And then about a month ago he did a book review of "The Shack", a rather nauseating Christian fairy tale, and was so put off by it that he decided any form of Christianity was going out the window.

He actually posted here an apology to all the people he had offended. I can't be bothered to look it up but it is around somewhere. He became more aware...

It's difficult, when you've been so fixated one way or another your whole life. I respect him because he does seem to be genuinely committed to being honest with himself. Like I said, some of the personality trait things... when you've been a macho guy your whole life, used to responding to insults in kind, used to goading people a bit in debate... it can be hard to tell when you're being an asshole. And when someone is an asshole to you... it can be very hard to smile and let it pass.

In conclusion, watching Egor struggle with his identity... well it's not like I'm just eating popcorn here Tongue But it's crazy to think how different he was. I'm not gonna say that I hope he becomes an atheist and we can all eat babies together but... I'm kinda hooked now... I'd like to see where he goes from here... like I said, he's an interesting guy.

... coming home from Damascus?

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24-06-2012, 12:58 PM
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 09:11 AM)DLJ Wrote:  ... coming home from Damascus?
Trouble is when you have said T1 = T2, and "of course we don't 'know.' That's why we're here discussing it. That's why we
take what we can observe and try to use logical reasoning to connect the dots" and "am not now, nor ever will be an atheist",
it kinda means yer gonna be kinda nervous ringing the door bell. Makes me think he's still dancin in the vivid dream over ta Damascus.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-06-2012, 10:59 PM
RE: Science is Dead
I truly can't imagine what discoveries we will make in next 200 years, let alone the next million years.
To even suggest that science doesn't have much more to discover is to completely ignore all that we have discovered in the past 200 years.
Look at every field of science and then the hundreds of sub fields and hundreds of specialized fields of study.
Acoustics The study of sound.
Aeronautics Aircraft design, construction, and navigation.
Agronomy science of soil management and crop production
Anatomy The study of organisms and their parts.
Anthropology The study of the origin, behavior, and the physical, social, and cultural development of humans.
Archaeology The study of past human lives by examining remaining material evidence.
Astronomy The study of outer space.
Astrophysics The branch of astronomy that deals with the physics of stellar phenomena.
Bacteriology The study of bacteria, especially in relation to medicine and agriculture.
Biochemistry The study of the chemical substances and processes in living organisms.
Biology The science of life and living organisms
Botany The study of plants.
Cardiology The medical study of the heart.
Cartography The art or technique of making maps or charts.
Chemistry The science of the composition, structure, properties, and reactions of matter, especially of atomic and molecular systems.
Cosmology The study of the physical universe considered as a totality of phenomena in time and space.
Crystallography The science of crystal structure and phenomena.
Ecology The study of organisms and their environment.
Embryology The study of the formation, early growth, and development of living organisms.
Endocrinology The study of the glands and hormones of the body.
Entomology The scientific study of insects.
Enzymology The study of the biochemical nature and activity of enzymes.
Forestry The science and art of cultivating, maintaining, and developing forests.
Gelotology The study of laughter.
Genetics The study of heredity and inherited traits.
Geochemistry The chemistry of the composition and alterations of the solid matter of the earth or a celestial body.
Geodesy The geologic science of the size and shape of the earth.
Geography The study of the earth and its features.
Geology The scientific study of the origin, history, and structure of the earth.
Geophysics The physics of the earth and its environment, including the physics of fields such as meteorology, oceanography, and seismology
Hematology The study of the blood and blood-producing organs.
Histology The study of the microscopic structure of animal and plant tissues.
Horology The science of measuring time and making time pieces
Hydrology The study of the properties and effects of water on earth.
Ichthyology The study of fish.
Immunology The study of the immune system of the body.
Linguistics The study of language and phonetics.
Mechanics Design, construction, and use of machinery or mechanical structures.
Medicine The science of diagnosing and treating disease and damage to the body.
Meteorology The study of weather and atmospheric conditions.
Metrology The science of measurement.
Microbiology The study of microorganisms and their effects on other living organisms.
Mineralogy The study of minerals, including their distribution, identification, and properties.
Mycology The branch of botany that deals with fungi.
Neurology The study of the nervous system and disorders affecting it.
Nucleonics The study of the behavior and characteristics of nucleons or atomic nuclei.
Nutrition The study of food and nourishment.
Oceanography The exploration and study of the ocean.
Oncology The study of the development, diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of tumors.
Optics The study of light and vision.
Paleontology The study of prehistoric life through fossils.
Pathology The study of disease and its causes, processes, development, and consequences.
Petrology The study of the origin, composition, structure, and alteration of rocks.
Pharmacology The science of the composition, use, and effects of drugs.
Physics The science of matter and energy and interactions between the two.
Physiology The study of the functions of living organisms.
Psychology The study of the mental process and behavior.
Radiology The use of radioactive substances in diagnosis and treatment of disease.
Robotics The science of technology to design, fabrication, and application of robots.
Seismology The study of earthquakes.
Spectroscopy The study of radiant light.
Systematics The science of systematic classification.
Thermodynamics The study of relationships and conversions between heat and other forms of energy.
Toxicology The study of poisons and the treatment of poisoning.
Virology The study of viruses and viral diseases.
Volcanology The study of volcanoes and volcanic phenomena.
Zoology The study of the structure, physiology, development, and classification of animals.

To imagine 100,000 different fields of study that can progress a little more each year and then add in the fantasy stuff that we wish could happen, that will probably happen one day. Transportation to the next planet, then the next star system, then discovery of other life on other worlds (it will happen eventually), then add in any number of new discoveries from that world x a billion other worlds in our galaxy alone.

To misdiagnose the heart beat of science and progress this badly, one would have to be completely out of touch with reality

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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24-06-2012, 11:15 PM
RE: Science is Dead
Well since science is dead...




Justin
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24-06-2012, 11:53 PM
 
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 04:04 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(24-06-2012 03:45 AM)Egor Wrote:  I am an atheist


Evil_monster master...will be pleased... Evil_monster




I am Satan's master. We always have been.
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25-06-2012, 12:29 AM
 
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 04:26 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  "I am also the founder of Black Spirit Publishing and the author of “The
Veridican” a an anti-atheist webzine dedicated to fighting the
atheistic influence in our society."

So why are you an atheist again?
-snip-
-snip-


I hope that isn't something you pulled off of somewhere recently. I hope I've changed all that in all my online presences. I'll have to do some more checking.

(24-06-2012 05:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  Egor has changed a lot recently. Mainly, he has pulled away from religion. I'm finding it slightly difficult to keep up with where his thinking is at. I'm gonna give my potted history but please bear in mind I don't know this stuff for certain, when I talk about how he was thinking it's my impression. Hopefully you won't take it as insulting Egor Smile

Not at all. Frankly, I could use the summary, myself. Blink

Quote:When he first came to this forum he was a Christian. Very much a fundamentalist. He always had his own interpretation of the Bible - initially it was that the Gospels were divinely inspired truth and the rest was sort of... extra junk which might have a tad of divine inspiration but was mostly confusing.

He had a website where he posted lots of anti atheist stuff - a bit similar to conservapedia. That level.

Anyway, he sort of drifted in and out of the forum, then a few months later he came back here and told us that he was now a Veridican - his own offshoot branch of Christianity, with his own Gospel, written by himself, a synthesis of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Thomas. He reworked his website, it was interesting, he had forum reviews and book reviews - a lot of work went into it, and his forum reviews were quite fair and balanced - odd but true. He reviewed this place positively.

Yeah, I'd say so far so good.

Quote:Egor's always been kinda macho. He's not above mudslinging and he can be nasty sometimes. When he first came here I think he saw things in terms of "winning the debate"... you know... battling the noisome atheists for Christ. He still seems to struggle to deal with people who have an alternate opinion... Still chucks in the odd ad hominem and still is fairly graceless even when people are being nice Tongue These are personality traits, very difficult to change. Anyway, for this reason there are many who react badly to him, and you can't really fault them for that.

Well, yeah, when I judge people to be complete losers and holding idiotic opinions they can't defend and acting like subhuman pussies who can't fight their way out of a birth canal...

...Oh, I think I see what you mean...ahem...Please continue.

Quote:But he's an interesting guy. Like I said, initially he was so fundamentalist seeming we thought he'd never change. He seemed to be here only to berate us, for whatever reason. But subsequently the Veridican thing... he broke completely with mainstream Christianity. That was interesting. And then about a month ago he did a book review of "The Shack", a rather nauseating Christian fairy tale, and was so put off by it that he decided any form of Christianity was going out the window.

Absolutely.

Quote:He actually posted here an apology to all the people he had offended. I can't be bothered to look it up but it is around somewhere. He became more aware...

It's difficult, when you've been so fixated one way or another your whole life. I respect him because he does seem to be genuinely committed to being honest with himself. Like I said, some of the personality trait things... when you've been a macho guy your whole life, used to responding to insults in kind, used to goading people a bit in debate... it can be hard to tell when you're being an asshole. And when someone is an asshole to you... it can be very hard to smile and let it pass.

Why would I ever smile and let it pass? That's what I have to do at work with mentally ill patients, and my bosses. Why would I do that online? Respect earns respect. Here in the online wild wild West, there's no holds barred.

Quote:In conclusion, watching Egor struggle with his identity... well it's not like I'm just eating popcorn here Tongue But it's crazy to think how different he was. I'm not gonna say that I hope he becomes an atheist and we can all eat babies together but... I'm kinda hooked now... I'd like to see where he goes from here... like I said, he's an interesting guy.


Thank you, Morondog. You've been very accurate in you summary, I think. One day, I hope we can share a barbequed baby together and talk about the mysteries of life--until that day, I will always follow your posts here on Thinking Atheists. Bowing

(24-06-2012 05:15 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Well then that's a horse of a different color! I hope he is really questioning his beliefs.

I apologize Egor, I was wrong for that.


No problem at all. I am always questioning my beliefs. I just feel like I've come to a place where there's nothing left to question.

(24-06-2012 06:10 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  or God is the hardware and we are the software running on that hardware, or god is the sand and we are the drawings in the sand? In that case, why not just say: God is nature, and we are natural - or better: Nature is nature and we are natural? Why use the word God at all when your beliefs seem to have transitioned to a point where using that term is no longer descriptive?

One could say Nature. I have always thought the word Nature with a capital "N" was synonymous with "God" with a capital G. But "nature" has the connotation of materialism-only. And that's not accurate.

Quote:Personally I am unconvinced by your claims of precognition and the like that you use to argue that there is a spiritual dimension to the universe. I doubt the claims themselves and think them likely to be self-delusion at one level or another. I doubt the logical leap from accepting those claims to assuming a spiritual dimension (why couldn't precognition if it occurs be some interaction with the future, rather than with something interceding between ourselves and the future?). I doubt the very idea or of a spirituality, which in the end seems to mean nothing more than a feeling rather than a reality that might interact with ours in some meaningful way.

Great. You can doubt the precognitive experiences I have had, but I am unable to do that. And what do you mean "interaction with the future"? There is no "future." It doesn't exist yet. You do realize that, don't you?

Quote:But in any case, if one accepts your model then how does "God" get to be a descriptive term? Even if nature is a thing that we can interact with in vastly different ways than we have been interacting so far, how do we get from this new understanding of nature to "God"?

When you get to an understanding of God, God disappears entirely. When I die and go to my lucid spiritual plane, there will be less evidence of "God" than there is now. And if I advance from my LSP to a higher plane, there will be even less. If I ultimately find a complete union with God, there will be no God, only me, because God can't have a God. If there is no higher self of lucid spiritual plane, then my very typing of these words is simply something the chemicals of my body have to do for no reason whatsoever, and what I am typing means nothing whatsoever. The whole communication between you and me is nothing but meaningless random goings on of quarks.

Quote:You seem set against science not because it's too expensive or too difficult, but because you have carved out for yourself a tiny corner of certainty where everyone else is wrong and you are right. It's just like the creationists who claim to have a revealed truth and hate the idea of anyone looking at their truth in a way that might take the truth away from them.

You mean kind of like the way you are talking right now where you are sure you are right and I am wrong--right?


Quote:It's like you're scared that if someone actually understands quantum physics that your metaphysics will collapse in a way you can't accept. How difficult is it for you to say "I don't know. I have no revealed truth. I don't have a special understanding of or relationship with the universe, and I'm OK with that."?

But apparently I do have an understanding. And I don't care about quantum physics being right. It keeps changing and no one can see a quark. Theoretical physics is just speculation. No one knows how the universe ultimately began. We don't know why we have the observations of the universe expanding that we do (so we invent dark matter/energy just like a caveman inventing a god). We don't understand why subatomic particles like photons behave as they do or how they can illogically behave both as a wave and a particle. We don't know. It's not enough to speculate, and it's not enough to say goddidit. The fact is, we are ignorant, but these questions haunt us as the most important knowledge we can obtain.

On a theological level, it's impossible to understand how God could ever think or choose. My only revelation of God is a completely static non-thinking self-awareness, but that's not good enough, because apparently God does think in some way. Light can't be a particle and a wave, but apparently it is.

Theology has no answer. Science has no answer. I don't have an answer and neither do you. I just like to combat atheism because it's a stupid way to think--in my opinion, and I think one does better on their lucid spiritual plane if they think wider.

Quote:There probably is a limit to what we can know. We may dig down into the layers of things that exist and find a layer that we can't see deeper than. We might find we can't get to a theory of everything because we can't see beneath that threshold. If so, that's OK. For the moment though we're still able to dig a little deeper.


And that's what I mean when I say "Science is Dead." I believe in theoretical physics and cosmology, we have hit the limit.
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25-06-2012, 01:05 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(25-06-2012 12:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  And that's what I mean when I say "Science is Dead." I believe in theoretical physics and cosmology, we have hit the limit.
That's still up for debate Tongue

To me it sounds allot like the god of the gaps argument. As science fills in more gaps the boundaries where god operates are pushed further back.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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25-06-2012, 03:14 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(25-06-2012 01:05 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(25-06-2012 12:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  And that's what I mean when I say "Science is Dead." I believe in theoretical physics and cosmology, we have hit the limit.
That's still up for debate Tongue

To me it sounds allot like the god of the gaps argument. As science fills in more gaps the boundaries where god operates are pushed further back.
As it is, I searched my ass off and compiled some great abiogensis information. While there are some gaps left, it's look pretty dismal for God to fill in that space any more.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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25-06-2012, 03:33 AM
RE: Science is Dead
How do cells differentiate into different cell types?

How does a single cell develop into a coherent organism?

Why are there procaryotes and eucaryotes, but apparently nothing in
between?

What is the exact story of how life began?

How does the brain work?

How did the galaxies form?

What is responsible for the large scale structure of the galaxies?

What keeps the star formation rate of many spiral galaxies constant in
time?

Why were the initial conditions in the early universe so symmetric?

What are the reasons for the values of the twenty-odd parameters of
the
standard models of particle physics and cosmology?

Why do those values have the property that they make it possible for
stars,
galaxies and complex chemistry to form?

How is gravitation consistent with quantum phenomena?

What happens inside of black holes?

What happens at the end point of black hole evaporation ?
http://amasci.com/weird/end.html

Some depressives have poor imaginations.



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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