Science is Dead
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25-06-2012, 09:12 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(25-06-2012 08:55 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Not all prophets. Sadcryface2
Of course, in an either/or situation; rather than trust in this prophet, it is best to distrust in all prophets.
Even if AP could be used to support god, it is far more likely to support an LC type god (machine intelligence) than an anthropic one. Sillies.


But who's gonna sit in the profit prophet seat ?
http://www.npr.org/2011/03/04/134265287/...reality-em
I be a hologram, running from the surface. Brian done tol me so.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/fab...osmos.html

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-06-2012, 09:03 AM
 
RE: Science is Dead
(25-06-2012 03:47 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  So if I'm reading this right, basically the story is you enjoy coming here trolling atheists, yeah?

Whatever.

(25-06-2012 05:14 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Just what is it exactly that you know that noone else knows, and how can you show that your beliefs - any of your beliefs - are reality-based? Knowledge of the nature of God doesn't count here unless you can use that knowledge to do something that noone else can do. What can you do? Can you open up a new branch of physics based on the special interactions you are having with Nature? Can you disprove or require to be refined any scientific law or theory? Can you produce more food than other people and feed the world? Can you reverse ageing? Can you fly? Can you come back from the dead, or raise the dead? Can you communicate with the dead? Can you communicate with alien species? Can you identify alien species? Can you devise a new form of space flight? Can you locate exoplanets not yet known to science? Just what is your revealed truth?

No. I can’t do any of that. I can’t even say with certainty that I am right (i.e., that God is the monistic fundamental consciousness, that human beings are spiritual in nature, that we exist lucidly on our spiritual plane when we are not blinded by our physical senses, and that the purpose of life is to learn wisdom that we need to develop into the fullness of God). For all I know, when I die, I will not know anything—I will simply become void.

But my experiences in life have led me to the above beliefs, experiences that I cannot doubt without in turn doubting all my experiences. I have had real precognition (the details of which are unimportant since you don’t believe in precognition anyway), and the implications of that have led me to believe in God. I have had lucid dream experiences and other conscious phenomena that lead me to believe there is more to life than physical life. I have watched creatures, protozoa, swimming around with apparent will and purpose, and yet I know they have no nervous system whatsoever.

I look at the oddities of nature, the apparent design, the existence of contingent things, the theory of the big bang, and the evolution of life, and I think it’s simply insane to deny a conscious application of volition underlying it all.

So, I want answers. I want an atheist to show me how I’m wrong in all that thinking, and just saying I don’t have a peer-reviewed paper to prove my experiences says nothing. Just saying “you can’t prove it,” is not a positive argument. I’m not trying to convert you to anything; I’m waiting for you to de-convert me. Show me that there is no God, and I’ll stop believing in Him.

Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
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26-06-2012, 09:26 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(26-06-2012 09:03 AM)Egor Wrote:  So, I want answers. I want an atheist to show me how I’m wrong in all that thinking, and just saying I don’t have a peer-reviewed paper to prove my experiences says nothing. Just saying “you can’t prove it,” is not a positive argument. I’m not trying to convert you to anything; I’m waiting for you to de-convert me. Show me that there is no God, and I’ll stop believing in Him.

Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
Everyone wants answers. Think is there aren't answers to certain things. No answers that will satisfy anyone. Any answers will be made up from subjective experience just like your answer.

What if I don't want to prove you wrong?
What is the point and why refute something for which there is no evidence?

Why should it matter to me if you chose to believe there is some entity of universal conciousness.

Some sort of universal mind where I suppose we dump and merge our life experiences when we die. It's ok with me that you believe that. I doubt you'll be flying planes into buildings or generally hurting people because of your beliefs, so we're all good! Thumbsup


So this thread has shifted from science being dead to a discussion about the merits of a version of deism.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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26-06-2012, 09:29 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(26-06-2012 09:03 AM)Egor Wrote:  So, I want answers. I want an atheist to show me how I’m wrong in all that thinking, and just saying I don’t have a peer-reviewed paper to prove my experiences says nothing. Just saying “you can’t prove it,” is not a positive argument. I’m not trying to convert you to anything; I’m waiting for you to de-convert me. Show me that there is no God, and I’ll stop believing in Him.

Egor, why do you say you identify yourself with Atheists while at the same time you say you have a belief in God? Since you've decided to make up your own shit to live by, why would you want answers from someone else?

There are no answers to your subjective questions about your self or your life. And even if there were, it's no one's responsibility to give you any such answers.

If you want answers, find them yourself AND shut the fuck up.


Oops, sorry... you don't want to hear from me anymore... my advice is ... uh.... priceless. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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26-06-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: Science is Dead
The Standard Model being flawed doesn't mean it is outright wrong anymore than the fact that whenever we use gravity we rely on the existence of the Higgs particle/field, despite not yet having directly observed it. The model/equation has predictive capabilities that we can test, and this is how we know that something like the Higgs particle/field must exist and that is why scientists continue to pour over results from the LHC.

As to your challenge above regarding that atheists disprove god or "shut the fuck up";
How would I go about disproving god? (your version more specifically)

My guess is that you do not know and neither do I. Nor do I know how to disprove bigfoot. By definition, something that does not exist has no evidence for its existence, so it could never be proven but also by definition, it could never be dis-proven. I can't dis-prove the idea that there isn't a pink fairy following me around that disappears anytime someone is looking in its direction, anymore than I can disprove your version of god.

The point is that the universe from its grandest scale to its most minute scale works perfectly fine without the assumption of a god existing. We can explain it without the necessity for god or supernature or a monistic fundamental consciousness.


As to your paramecium evidence, people once saw pattern and consciousness in inanimate objects like volcanoes and the moon and the sun. Just because something appears to exhibit a pattern does not mean it is conscious in the same way you are. That paramecium doesn't 'see' anything but it can still navigate around objects thanks to chemical tracers. It doesn't think about these chemical tracers but when portions of its cell detect them, they either start or stop functioning. If it detects food, its cilia or flagellum begin to direct it towards the highest concentration of the 'odor' and if the concentration goes down, the flagellum or cilia alter the course.

It is very similar to a crystal forming within a melt. Take a crystal of quartz (SiO2). It is comprised almost entirely of those 2 elements (traces of other elements substituting for Si or O may occur) and in order to grow it must acquire more of these elements. It has a regular shape, it has order, it forms in a predictable order, at a predictable temperature, with other predictable minerals, but these Si and O atoms are not conscious nor is the crystal. It doesn't select Si or O, but instead it is thermodynamically advantageous for these 2 elements to combine under a predictable set of conditions.

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26-06-2012, 11:18 AM
RE: Science is Dead
I should have said thermodynamically favored instead of advantageous.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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26-06-2012, 11:31 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(26-06-2012 09:03 AM)Egor Wrote:  I look at the oddities of nature, the apparent design, the existence of contingent things, the theory of the big bang, and the evolution of life, and I think it’s simply insane to deny a conscious application of volition underlying it all.

This is still something that fills me with wonder. Life *is* complex. There's no denying it. And it kinda does demand some sort of effort to answer the question: "if I *don't* believe in a designer then how the crap did this get here?" Because empirically, from everything I observe in nature that is *not* alive... it *degrades*. It doesn't build up, it falls down.

But realise that these kind of answers that you're asking for are the difficult ones. Congratulations on reaching a place where not only can you ask the questions, but you are even willing to abandon your current position in pursuit of the answers Smile That is true free thinking.

Quote:Otherwise, shut the fuck up.

How would you like us to fuck off master? Wink

Hey be nice to Kim, she's on your side Smile
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26-06-2012, 11:41 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(26-06-2012 09:03 AM)Egor Wrote:  Show me that there is no God, and I’ll stop believing in Him.
Egor, you should know that it's impossible to do this.

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26-06-2012, 01:51 PM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2012 03:01 PM by Chas.)
RE: Science is Dead
(26-06-2012 09:03 AM)Egor Wrote:  But my experiences in life have led me to the above beliefs, experiences that I cannot doubt without in turn doubting all my experiences. I have had real precognition (the details of which are unimportant since you don’t believe in precognition anyway), and the implications of that have led me to believe in God. I have had lucid dream experiences and other conscious phenomena that lead me to believe there is more to life than physical life. I have watched creatures, protozoa, swimming around with apparent will and purpose, and yet I know they have no nervous system whatsoever.

I look at the oddities of nature, the apparent design, the existence of contingent things, the theory of the big bang, and the evolution of life, and I think it’s simply insane to deny a conscious application of volition underlying it all.

So, I want answers. I want an atheist to show me how I’m wrong in all that thinking, and just saying I don’t have a peer-reviewed paper to prove my experiences says nothing. Just saying “you can’t prove it,” is not a positive argument. I’m not trying to convert you to anything; I’m waiting for you to de-convert me. Show me that there is no God, and I’ll stop believing in Him.

Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
If you study evolution and understand the mechanism, most of what you have experienced will be explained without resorting to supernatural explanations or to the fundamental monistic consciousness.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-06-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: Science is Dead
(26-06-2012 11:41 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(26-06-2012 09:03 AM)Egor Wrote:  Show me that there is no God, and I’ll stop believing in Him.
Egor, you should know that it's impossible to do this.
I think that's what he means.
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