Science is Dead
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24-06-2012, 01:45 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2012 02:36 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 01:21 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(23-06-2012 11:43 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  But to insult science, atheism, and evolution means you're probably trolling.

SO DO NOT FEED HIM ANY MORE TROLL FOOD.


That's exactly what I'm talking about: look at your adherence, your loyalty. How can "science" be insulted? It's not a being. You meant to say "disagree with" but you said--quite automatically, I'm sure--"insult."

Religious thinking is faith in something you believe to be greater than yourself. Your atheism is religious thinking. You should be like me and make no comment at all. There really is nothing to say. If God exists, there's nothing to say about it; He plays His games and we play ours. If God doesn't exist, then there's no reason to have any religion at all, not even atheism. If God is simply our higher self, then we are simply having an internal monologue at this point, and so again, there's no reason to be religous or take a position on the existence of God. In fact, if God is our higher self, then there is no God, because God can't have a God.

Your atheism is pointless. When are you ever going to see that? And I'll bet you consider yourself a free thinker. No
Dear Egor, according to you, Christians and all other religious people are mistaken, atheism is pointless and scientists are wasting their time, so the only people who understand the nature of things are you and your wife! But hang on...she's a verucundian, a religion you've now abandoned! So that leaves you, alone, in your deluded little world. Be careful not to put any philosophy in your new novel...only you will be smart enough to understand it. Ain't it a bummer not having someone as clever as yourself to talk to!
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24-06-2012, 02:33 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 01:21 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(23-06-2012 11:43 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  But to insult science, atheism, and evolution means you're probably trolling.

SO DO NOT FEED HIM ANY MORE TROLL FOOD.
That's exactly what I'm talking about: look at your adherence, your loyalty. How can "science" be insulted? It's not a being. You meant to say "disagree with" but you said--quite automatically, I'm sure--"insult."

Religious thinking is faith in something you believe to be greater than yourself. Your atheism is religious thinking. You should be like me and make no comment at all. There really is nothing to say. If God exists, there's nothing to say about it; He plays His games and we play ours. If God doesn't exist, then there's no reason to have any religion at all, not even atheism. If God is simply our higher self, then we are simply having an internal monologue at this point, and so again, there's no reason to be religous or take a position on the existence of God. In fact, if God is our higher self, then there is no God, because God can't have a God.

Your atheism is pointless. When are you ever going to see that? And I'll bet you consider yourself a free thinker. No
Hi Egor. Just curious, is your current position that of an apatheist?

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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24-06-2012, 03:23 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2012 03:40 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 01:21 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(23-06-2012 11:43 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  But to insult science, atheism, and evolution means you're probably trolling.

SO DO NOT FEED HIM ANY MORE TROLL FOOD.


That's exactly what I'm talking about: look at your adherence, your loyalty. How can "science" be insulted? It's not a being. You meant to say "disagree with" but you said--quite automatically, I'm sure--"insult."

Religious thinking is faith in something you believe to be greater than yourself. Your atheism is religious thinking. You should be like me and make no comment at all. There really is nothing to say. If God exists, there's nothing to say about it; He plays His games and we play ours. If God doesn't exist, then there's no reason to have any religion at all, not even atheism. If God is simply our higher self, then we are simply having an internal monologue at this point, and so again, there's no reason to be religious or take a position on the existence of God. In fact, if God is our higher self, then there is no God, because God can't have a God.

Your atheism is pointless. When are you ever going to see that? And I'll bet you consider yourself a free thinker. No
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Hahaha You sound like a nihilist. So how is atheism a religion?

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24-06-2012, 03:45 AM
 
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 02:33 AM)robotworld Wrote:  Hi Egor. Just curious, is your current position that of an apatheist?


It's not that easy, I don't think. I believe God is the monistic fundamental consciousness. That implies that only God exists. Everything else is sub-real and formed from the substance of God, which is ultimately consciousness--the monistic fundamental consciousness.

That means you are God, I am God, my dog is God and this computer keyboard is God. All there is is God, and God can't have a God.

Therefore, I am an atheist, because all I believe in is God. Unsure
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24-06-2012, 04:04 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 03:45 AM)Egor Wrote:  I am an atheist

Evil_monster master...will be pleased... Evil_monster

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24-06-2012, 04:14 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 03:45 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(24-06-2012 02:33 AM)robotworld Wrote:  Hi Egor. Just curious, is your current position that of an apatheist?


It's not that easy, I don't think. I believe God is the monistic fundamental consciousness. That implies that only God exists. Everything else is sub-real and formed from the substance of God, which is ultimately consciousness--the monistic fundamental consciousness.

That means you are God, I am God, my dog is God and this computer keyboard is God. All there is is God, and God can't have a God.

Therefore, I am an atheist, because all I believe in is God. Unsure
Mmmmmmmmm. You are now inventing your own meaning for words. That is going to make it almost impossible for you to communicate.

Interestingly, there are some similarities between what you say about "God" and what some gnostics believed. They thought to understand oneself allowed one to discover "god." Knowledge of self (gnosis) resurrected us out of ignorance. It was quite an interesting, sophisticated philosophy. Unfortunately Catholics (in league with the Roman government) suppressed them and destroyed their writings.
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24-06-2012, 04:26 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2012 05:19 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: Science is Dead
"I am also the founder of Black Spirit Publishing and the author of “The
Veridican” a an anti-atheist webzine dedicated to fighting the
atheistic influence in our society."

So why are you an atheist again?
-snip-
-snip-

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24-06-2012, 05:06 AM
RE: Science is Dead
Egor has changed a lot recently. Mainly, he has pulled away from religion. I'm finding it slightly difficult to keep up with where his thinking is at. I'm gonna give my potted history but please bear in mind I don't know this stuff for certain, when I talk about how he was thinking it's my impression. Hopefully you won't take it as insulting Egor Smile

When he first came to this forum he was a Christian. Very much a fundamentalist. He always had his own interpretation of the Bible - initially it was that the Gospels were divinely inspired truth and the rest was sort of... extra junk which might have a tad of divine inspiration but was mostly confusing.

He had a website where he posted lots of anti atheist stuff - a bit similar to conservapedia. That level.

Anyway, he sort of drifted in and out of the forum, then a few months later he came back here and told us that he was now a Veridican - his own offshoot branch of Christianity, with his own Gospel, written by himself, a synthesis of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Thomas. He reworked his website, it was interesting, he had forum reviews and book reviews - a lot of work went into it, and his forum reviews were quite fair and balanced - odd but true. He reviewed this place positively.

Egor's always been kinda macho. He's not above mudslinging and he can be nasty sometimes. When he first came here I think he saw things in terms of "winning the debate"... you know... battling the noisome atheists for Christ. He still seems to struggle to deal with people who have an alternate opinion... Still chucks in the odd ad hominem and still is fairly graceless even when people are being nice Tongue These are personality traits, very difficult to change. Anyway, for this reason there are many who react badly to him, and you can't really fault them for that.

But he's an interesting guy. Like I said, initially he was so fundamentalist seeming we thought he'd never change. He seemed to be here only to berate us, for whatever reason. But subsequently the Veridican thing... he broke completely with mainstream Christianity. That was interesting. And then about a month ago he did a book review of "The Shack", a rather nauseating Christian fairy tale, and was so put off by it that he decided any form of Christianity was going out the window.

He actually posted here an apology to all the people he had offended. I can't be bothered to look it up but it is around somewhere. He became more aware...

It's difficult, when you've been so fixated one way or another your whole life. I respect him because he does seem to be genuinely committed to being honest with himself. Like I said, some of the personality trait things... when you've been a macho guy your whole life, used to responding to insults in kind, used to goading people a bit in debate... it can be hard to tell when you're being an asshole. And when someone is an asshole to you... it can be very hard to smile and let it pass.

In conclusion, watching Egor struggle with his identity... well it's not like I'm just eating popcorn here Tongue But it's crazy to think how different he was. I'm not gonna say that I hope he becomes an atheist and we can all eat babies together but... I'm kinda hooked now... I'd like to see where he goes from here... like I said, he's an interesting guy.
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24-06-2012, 05:15 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2012 05:54 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 05:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  In conclusion, watching Egor struggle with his identity... well it's not like I'm just eating popcorn here Tongue But it's crazy to think how different he was. I'm not gonna say that I hope he becomes an atheist and we can all eat babies together but... I'm kinda hooked now... I'd like to see where he goes from here... like I said, he's an interesting guy.
Well then that's a horse of a different color! I hope he is really questioning his beliefs.

I apologize Egor, I was wrong for that.

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24-06-2012, 06:10 AM
RE: Science is Dead
(24-06-2012 03:45 AM)Egor Wrote:  That means you are God, I am God, my dog is God and this computer keyboard is God. All there is is God, and God can't have a God.
Therefore, I am an atheist, because all I believe in is God. Unsure
... or God is the hardware and we are the software running on that hardware, or god is the sand and we are the drawings in the sand? In that case, why not just say: God is nature, and we are natural - or better: Nature is nature and we are natural? Why use the word God at all when your beliefs seem to have transitioned to a point where using that term is no longer descriptive?

Personally I am unconvinced by your claims of precognition and the like that you use to argue that there is a spiritual dimension to the universe. I doubt the claims themselves and think them likely to be self-delusion at one level or another. I doubt the logical leap from accepting those claims to assuming a spiritual dimension (why couldn't precognition if it occurs be some interaction with the future, rather than with something interceding between ourselves and the future?). I doubt the very idea or of a spirituality, which in the end seems to mean nothing more than a feeling rather than a reality that might interact with ours in some meaningful way.

But in any case, if one accepts your model then how does "God" get to be a descriptive term? Even if nature is a thing that we can interact with in vastly different ways than we have been interacting so far, how do we get from this new understanding of nature to "God"?

You seem set against science not because it's too expensive or too difficult, but because you have carved out for yourself a tiny corner of certainty where everyone else is wrong and you are right. It's just like the creationists who claim to have a revealed truth and hate the idea of anyone looking at their truth in a way that might take the truth away from them. It's like you're scared that if someone actually understands quantum physics that your metaphysics will collapse in a way you can't accept. How difficult is it for you to say "I don't know. I have no revealed truth. I don't have a special understanding of or relationship with the universe, and I'm OK with that."?

There probably is a limit to what we can know. We may dig down into the layers of things that exist and find a layer that we can't see deeper than. We might find we can't get to a theory of everything because we can't see beneath that threshold. If so, that's OK. For the moment though we're still able to dig a little deeper.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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