Science is a Religion.
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06-01-2012, 04:49 PM
RE: Science is a Religion.
(06-01-2012 01:56 PM)Ghost Wrote:  The Theistic master narrative says there is a God because he revealed himself.
The scientific master narrative says there is no God because there's no proof of one.
The Agnostic master narrative says it's impossible to know whether or not there is a God because it can't be proven one way or the other.

I disagree with your characterization of science in this description.
The science master will simply say "There is no evidence."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-01-2012, 09:25 PM
RE: Science is a Religion.
(06-01-2012 12:50 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  Science corrects itself, it keeps itself in line, it is continually trying to prove itself wrong so it can come up with better and more accurate models of how the universe works.

This is science's greatest strength - it allows criticism and builds on it. It self-corrects to become more perfect. Religions don't do that... or at least not to the same degree.

But you, Jackrabbit, must know that Islam does somewhat. There are sections of the Q'uran such as the "Satanic Verses" that have been edited out (not literally, but mentally) and there are later additions in the form of Sunnah and Hadith.

Christians also mentally edit the scriptures. It's no longer sinful to eat pig or shellfish, to work on the Sabbath, or to banish women for a time when menstruating. It is said that Jesus' return made these things no longer necessary, although there's no logical link to "why". It's just editing the bible without actually changing the words.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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07-01-2012, 06:29 AM
RE: Science is a Religion.
Funny how you mentoned Schrödinger's cat, I was thinking of that when i read your first msg on this thread. God can't exist because science can't prove he/she does, but still does exist because religon say he/she does because science can't dismiss that he/she doesn't exist, therefor god must exist but can't because there's no proof that he/she doesHuh. Its circular logic at its best, who says Quantum physics and Relgion can't be fun.

(06-01-2012 02:44 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Using Schrödinger's cat as my basis I believe that God both exists and does not exist simultaneously and that this condition will never change because humans will never observe God because we will never be able to prove the existence or non-existence of God because the supernatural is immeasurable using the laws of the natural universe because, by definition, it is above and beyond the natural.
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07-01-2012, 08:54 AM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2012 09:07 AM by Chas.)
RE: Science is a Religion.
(06-01-2012 02:44 PM)Ghost Wrote:  But the short form is this: Using Schrödinger's cat as my basis I believe that God both exists and does not exist simultaneously and that this condition will never change because humans will never observe God because we will never be able to prove the existence or non-existence of God because the supernatural is immeasurable using the laws of the natural universe because, by definition, it is above and beyond the natural. I believe it's impossible to answer the God question; however, I also believe that it's irrelevant. What we can observe and what we do know is that people do or do not believe in God and it is that belief that informs their thoughts and actions. If God does intervene in our lives, we'll never know so that's also irrelevant. ...

This argument falls apart if one rejects the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics. You do know that Schrödinger created this thought experiment to show his disagreement with that interpretation.

The argument that we can never prove the existence/non-existence of the supernatural because it is supernatural is true only by definition; that is, by defining the supernatural as something we can't detect. If we can't detect it, then it has no effect on the natural world. If it has no effect, then how can it be said to exist in any meaningful way?



(06-01-2012 04:40 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Rahn.

It's interesting that you point that out because the flying buttress, an indispensible and utterly ubiquitous architectural support structure, was invented to allow stone Cathedrals to have vaulted ceilings. To me that just illustrates the relationship between religion and science. They're not as estranged as portrayed.

That's a very odd illustration. How does an engineering solution to building a church say anything interesting about the relationship?
All it says is that the church hired good masons, and the masons were smart enough to keep their employers happy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-01-2012, 10:06 AM
RE: Science is a Religion.
(06-01-2012 09:25 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(06-01-2012 12:50 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  Science corrects itself, it keeps itself in line, it is continually trying to prove itself wrong so it can come up with better and more accurate models of how the universe works.

This is science's greatest strength - it allows criticism and builds on it. It self-corrects to become more perfect. Religions don't do that... or at least not to the same degree.

But you, Jackrabbit, must know that Islam does somewhat. There are sections of the Q'uran such as the "Satanic Verses" that have been edited out (not literally, but mentally) and there are later additions in the form of Sunnah and Hadith.

Christians also mentally edit the scriptures. It's no longer sinful to eat pig or shellfish, to work on the Sabbath, or to banish women for a time when menstruating. It is said that Jesus' return made these things no longer necessary, although there's no logical link to "why". It's just editing the bible without actually changing the words.

Funnt how no one mentioned these satanic verses to me while i was studying the teachings of islam, i was kept in the dark about it, and no one talks about it at all in islamic society as if it doesnt exist.

I have no idea what these satanic verses are, all i know is salman rushdi got heaps of threats for writing about them.

if you point out to me the specific verses i can glance over the original verses in arabic and see if i can understand.

(07-01-2012 08:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-01-2012 02:44 PM)Ghost Wrote:  But the short form is this: Using Schrödinger's cat as my basis I believe that God both exists and does not exist simultaneously and that this condition will never change because humans will never observe God because we will never be able to prove the existence or non-existence of God because the supernatural is immeasurable using the laws of the natural universe because, by definition, it is above and beyond the natural. I believe it's impossible to answer the God question; however, I also believe that it's irrelevant. What we can observe and what we do know is that people do or do not believe in God and it is that belief that informs their thoughts and actions. If God does intervene in our lives, we'll never know so that's also irrelevant. ...

This argument falls apart if one rejects the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics. You do know that Schrödinger created this thought experiment to show his disagreement with that interpretation.

The argument that we can never prove the existence/non-existence of the supernatural because it is supernatural is true only by definition; that is, by defining the supernatural as something we can't detect. If we can't detect it, then it has no effect on the natural world. If it has no effect, then how can it be said to exist in any meaningful way?



(06-01-2012 04:40 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Rahn.

It's interesting that you point that out because the flying buttress, an indispensible and utterly ubiquitous architectural support structure, was invented to allow stone Cathedrals to have vaulted ceilings. To me that just illustrates the relationship between religion and science. They're not as estranged as portrayed.

That's a very odd illustration. How does an engineering solution to building a church say anything interesting about the relationship?
All it says is that the church hired good masons, and the masons were smart enough to keep their employers happy.


True, just like great art was comissioned by churches in the renaissance ,
art is inspired by everything, including fiction xD

A good example of this today is How Seth the TTA, works in video production and works with churches and religious communities although hes an atheist, he makes a living, puts food on his table and has a good work ethic that doesnt discriminate.

pardon any mistakes in my posts of late, im high on cough medicin and the cold is getting to my head Tongue

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07-01-2012, 12:05 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2012 12:21 PM by kim.)
RE: Science is a Religion.
Quote:I have no idea what these satanic verses are, all i know is salman rushdi got heaps of threats for writing about them.

if you point out to me the specific verses i can glance over the original verses in arabic and see if i can understand.

I also know little about the Satanic Verses but have been quite curious; anything that would piss off people enough to threaten murder, sounds like something I want to know about! I'm going to find a copy of Salman Rushdi's book to see what he had to say, but it would be wonderful to hear an objective take on the original verses! Smile

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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07-01-2012, 12:25 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2012 01:03 PM by AbdelZ.)
RE: Science is a Religion.
(06-01-2012 12:50 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  I was having a debate with a muslim friend of mine on skype.
We were talking about how there's no evidence for religious belief and he gave me this Gem of a quote from a muslim apologetics forum.

"Atheist; God is not falsifiable, simply because you require faith in Him.

answer: wouldn't that be neat if everything was falsifiable? Well sadly some things aren't. When a scientist believes in string theory due to it's mathematical harmony; despite that it's not falsifiable, people seem to look the other way. But if a theist believes in God based on a harmony in his world-view, it's like everybody goes: "look at that blind fool..." [Both are faith based, so why the double standards?]"

Aparently hes under the impression that sceintists believe religiously in string theory or any other theory and that justifies belief in god.

and that made me facepalm...





He works under the assumption that scientists believe in a theory beyond evidence and that its a double standard.

A good example against that claim is Einstein's theory of relativity, in which he produced testable predictions and and refused to believe in them until they were actually tested and yeilded results. e.g. expanding universe was verified later on by Hubble.

He doesn't for a moment think about the concept of scientific theory or the scientific method, that when scientists consider something like String theory or any other scientific theory that they do so based on evidence; nobody just comes up with a crazy theory without evidence to support his claim, in the case of string theory its mathmatical and not faith based.

String theory was not privately revealed and has no dogma attached to it, if tomorrow someone comes out demonstrating that string theory is invalid
based on evidence, no rational person would comit to it without reasonable proof, just as no one now comits to outdated theories such as the Cubical Atom and the Geocentric Earth.

The only reason theorists work under the assumption that a certain theory is an accurate model is to produce testable predictions that can verify or falsify that model.

Religion on the other hand works under the assumption that their version of god is the correct one, and when evidence and contradictions in their beliefs discrediting the notion arises, they still cling to it like a child on his mother's teat and then call "double standard" and shout "bigot".

Science corrects itself, it keeps itself in line, it is continually trying to prove itself wrong so it can come up with better and more accurate models of how the universe works. And there are many many theories in the history of scientific understanding that were proven inaccurate and better models were built. One of these theories was the notion put forth in the dark ages that light is emitted from the eye reflects on objects and returns back
was replaced by the more accurate theory that light rays produced from a light source (the sun. light bulb, etc.) reflects off of objects and into the eye.

Anyone wants to weigh in?

Hi, you should study islam deeply , silly fool, before you dare say anything on the matter , don't you think ?

I do not think you were a muslim either & it shows = any average muslim can see that through : you might be just some lunatic pretending to have left islam in order to demonize islam ...nice try


First of all , religion & science have different natures:

Science is all about material processes while islam for example is all about both matter & spirit

Science tries to explain the material processes while islam gives paradigms in regard to both the material & spiritual aspects of life , the universe ...



Second : the scientific method itself had islamic Qur'anic origin = science as the legetimate natural daughter of islam = science & islam as the 2 sides of the same story
science trying to explain the sacred & vice versa = both islam & science feed back each other
Even evolution was discovered by muslims for the first time ever before Darwin was even born

Third : modern science has become a kindda religion sometimes , especially under ideological materialism' s domination, excluding all non-materialistic paradigms in the process


Fourth:

No rational person can deny the pure scientific facts as such , but materialism had in fact imposed some of its prescriptive interpretative speculative ideological non-sense to science as "scientific facts " like the "fact ' that life itself is just a matter of "material processes" or the "fact " that the intellect is just a product of evolution , not to mention thus the "fact " that the very nature & function of the human consciousness is just a matter of material neuronal activity due to the so-called evolutionary complexity of the human brain = emergent property theory

Many scientists whisleblowers have been condemning the materialistic orthodoxy in science , so

It's only a matter of time before materialism in science & elsewhere will be sent to Alice's wonderland , together with its materialistic mechanical deterministic "newtonian-cartesian " paradigm




Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?

Source: Briffault's "Making of Humanity " you can download for free here below :

http://www.archive.org/details/makingofh...00brifrich

Here u go :

Note that the author mentions the "Arabic civilization or Arabic science " instead of saying the islamic ones : Arabs were in the minority concerning the latters


Excerpt from "The Reconstruction of Religious Thought " by Sir Dr.Muhammad Iqbal u can download for free here below , quoting Briffault : chapter 5 : The spirit of muslim culture :

(....Europe has been rather slow to recognise the islamic origin of her scientific method .But full recognition of the fact has at last come .Let me quote one or two passages from Briffault's making of Humanity :



Quote :

"....It was under their succesors at that Oxford school that Roger Bacon learned Arabic & Arabic science .Neither Roger Bacon nor his later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method.Roger Bacon was no more than one of the apostles of muslim science & method to christian Europe, and he never wearied of declaring that a knowledge of Arabic & Arabian science was for his contemporaries the only way to true knowledge.Discussions as to who was the originator of the experimental method are part of the colossal misrepresentation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of the Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread & eagerly cultivated throughout Europe . -pp.200-01-

Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world ,but its fruits were slow in ripening .Not until after long Moorish culture had sunk back into darkness did the giant to which it had given birth rise in his might .It was not science which brought Europe back to life .

Other and manifold influences from the civilization of islam communicated its first glow to European life.

For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence of the islamic culture is not traceable,nowhere is it so clear& momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the paramount distinctive force of the modern world and the supreme force of its victory -natural science & the scientific spirit.

The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories, science owes a great deal more to Arab culture , it owes its existence .

The ancient world was , as we saw , pre-scientific .

The astronomy & mathematics of the Greek were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture .The Greeks systematized, generalized & theorized , but the patient ways of investigation , the accumulation of positive knowledge ,the minute methods of science,detailed & prolonged observation, experimental inquiry ,were altogether alien to the Greek temperament .

Only in Hellinistic Alexandria was any approach to scientific work conducted in the ancient classical world, what we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry , of new methods of investigation ,of the method of experiment ,observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks .

That spirit & those methods were introduced to the European world by the Arabs -p.191-" end quote

The first important point to note about the spirit of muslim culture then is that ,for purposes of knowledge,[B]it fixes its gaze on the concrete, the finite .

It is further clear that the birth of the method of observation and experiment in islam was due not to a compromise with Greek thought but to a prolonged intellectual warfare with it .In fact ,the influence of the Greeks who,as Briffault says ,were interested chiefly in theory ,not in fact ,tended rather to obscure the muslims ' vision of the Qur'an ,and for at least two centuries kept the practical Arab temperament from asserting itself & coming to its own .I want therefore to definitely eradicate [B]the misunderstanding that Greek thought , in any way, determined the character of muslim culture.....)


Source : The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam by Sir Dr. Muhammad Iqbal , chapter 5 : the spirit of muslim culture :

Download the book for free :


http://www.maroc.nl/forums/nieuws-de-dag...ost4903943





Further more , see in the above mentioned book of Iqbal how muslims were the first ever to discover [B]evolution
itself & much much more


see this 3-part docu on the matter too while u are at it , presented by a an Iraki-British scientist on the field :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPlaS_wGz...r_embedded"]Science and Islam: Part 1: The Language of Science - YouTube


http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL5238...PlaS_wGzx8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0FSgNE4L...r_embedded"]Science and Islam: Part 2: The Empire of Reason - YouTube



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjdnKE_i...r_embedded"]Science and Islam: part 3: The Power of Doubt - YouTube


In other words of a Persian poet :

Quote :

"If your heart is not deceived by the mirage ,be not proud of the

sharpness of your understanding ,

for your freedom from this optical illusion is due to your imperfect

thirst " End quote
http://www.1001inventions.com

http://www.muslimheritage.com
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07-01-2012, 01:45 PM
RE: Science is a Religion.
(07-01-2012 12:25 PM)AbdelZ Wrote:  Hi, you should study islam deeply , silly fool, before you dare say anything on the matter , don't you think ?

I do not think you were a muslim either & it shows = any average muslim can see that through : you might be just some lunatic pretending to have left islam in order to demonize islam ...nice try

No no no no no.
How dare you, back your claims up or shut the fuck up. you dont know me or anything about me. Fool? i wasnt a muslim? it shows?
No sir, fuck you and fuck islam, fuck mohamed and fuck allah and all your other imaginary friends.

Look up Ad Hominem.

I can have a civilised debate if you wish, but if you start out the way you did then we have nothing more to talk about.

p.s. FUCK YOU and Kos OMAK

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07-01-2012, 03:19 PM
RE: Science is a Religion.
(07-01-2012 01:45 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  No sir, fuck you and fuck islam, fuck mohamed and fuck allah and all your other imaginary friends.

Well said Smile
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07-01-2012, 03:38 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2012 03:43 PM by AbdelZ.)
RE: Science is a Religion.
(07-01-2012 01:45 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  
(07-01-2012 12:25 PM)AbdelZ Wrote:  Hi, you should study islam deeply , silly fool, before you dare say anything on the matter , don't you think ?

I do not think you were a muslim either & it shows = any average muslim can see that through : you might be just some lunatic pretending to have left islam in order to demonize islam ...nice try

No no no no no.
How dare you, back your claims up or shut the fuck up. you dont know me or anything about me. Fool? i wasnt a muslim? it shows?
No sir, fuck you and fuck islam, fuck mohamed and fuck allah and all your other imaginary friends.

Look up Ad Hominem.

I can have a civilised debate if you wish, but if you start out the way you did then we have nothing more to talk about.

p.s. FUCK YOU and Kos OMAK

You are very civilized , i see , coward jerk

Do you, guys, think you can impress anyone with you fuck fuck fuck filth ? : if you were in front of me , you would certainly not know what would hit you, coward vulgar idiot , & you would have no teeth left in your filthy mouth anymore = an understatement


civilized debate , you say ? let me not laugh : see what you wrote , vulgar human trash garbage & see what i placed here above as an answer to your non-sense you can absolutely not address


So, go ahead , just try to play the macho vulgar coward guy = a way to hide your vulgarity, cowardice & insecurity

"You do not know me" , you say ? who would like to know a disgusting filthy parasite like yourself i would just crush happily , with pleasure , mass -hysterical shame & disgrace of humanity gathered together in one lousy forum that you are all : disgusting : you should be "proud " of yourselves, i see , psycho-socio-paths sheeps ,the one following the other without thinking = mass -hysterical jerks
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