Science proves GOD!
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29-07-2017, 01:30 AM
RE: Science proves GOD!
(28-07-2017 08:17 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The creation only shows that there is a God. Once you accept that fact the next step is discovering who he is.

> Indeed, to wit:

1 In the beginning Erú Ilúvatar, the One, made the Ainur of His thought; and they made a great Music before Him. In this Music the World was begun; for Ilúvatar made visible the song of the Ainur, and they beheld it as a light in the darkness. And many among them became enamored of its beauty, and of its history which they saw beginning and unfolding as in a vision. Therefore, Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the secret fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.

2 Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labors to fulfill the vision which they had seen. Long they labored in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thoughts of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein. (The Silmarillion: Valaquenta: 1-2)

2 In that time [of the Beginning of Days] the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna at last planted the seeds that she had long devised. And since, when the fires were subdued or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of light, Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the encircling seas. Then Varda filled the lamps and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised to the north of Middle-earth, and it was named Illuin; and the other was raised in the south, and it was named Ormal; and the light of the lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so all was lit as it were in changeless day.

3 The seeds that Yavanna had sown began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, and there arose a multitude of growing things great and small, mosses and grasses and great ferns, and trees whose tops were crowned with cloud as they were living mountains, but whose feet were wrapped in green twilight. And beasts came forth and dwelt in the grassy plains, or in the rivers and the lakes, or walked in the shadows of the woods. As yet not flower had bloomed nor any bird had sung, for those things waited still their time in the bosom of Yavanna; but wealth there was of her imagining, and nowhere more rich than in the midmost parts of the Earth, where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. And there upon the isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was the first dwelling of the Valar when all things were young, and new-made grass was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers; and they were long content.
(The Silmarillion 1:2-3)

3 It is told that even as Varda ended her labours, and they were long, when first Menelmacar strode up the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world, in that hour the Elven Children of the Earth awoke, the Firstborn of Ilúvatar. By the starlit mere of Cuiviénen, Water of Awakening, they rose from the sleep of Ilúvatar; and while they dwelt yet silent by Cuiviénen their eyes beheld first of all things the stars of heaven. Therefore they have ever loved the starlight, and have revered Varda Elentári above all the Valar. (The Silmarillion, 3:8)
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29-07-2017, 09:01 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2017 11:32 AM by Vera.)
RE: Science proves GOD!
Only, Eru was the same POS, leaving his "beloved" creation to fend for itself, like all the best god-monsters do Dodgy

Seriously, after I got the religious virus out of my system, it took me about 10 years to reread LOTR (and I wrote several of my papers on Tolkien in uni, including my master's thesis (though this was more because I *had* to make it more literary (I wanted to write about the idea of beauty), so I really *was* a fan)... the whole Catholic mentality is way too obvious. Not to mention the kinda seriously outdated classism ("Master, I'm gonna lay me body down for you to walk all over, if master so wishes") and the rest of it...

Yes, Bucky, my most dearest, this is possibly presentism. And yet, my present and his present aren't so far removed, really...


I still have a soft spot for him, but things are never gonna be the same Rolleyes




"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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29-07-2017, 09:28 AM
RE: Science proves GOD!
(28-07-2017 08:17 AM)theophilus Wrote:  You can find the answer to this in the 3rd chapter of Genesis. God created a perfect world,

Snort....Laugh out load Wow, you have a classic case of circular reasoning. Maybe you should see a doctor about this problem.

Quote:They sinned and the result was that neither the human race or the world is now perfect.

You find it quite reasonable that because someone ate an apple in a garden set up with trip wires all over the place that the Bubonic plague killed 30 million people?
Really? This is what you think? You think that children and babies die of cancer because an apple was eaten?

Ahhh, my deluded friend, but you've forgotten this little nugget from your book of nonsense:

Ezekiel 18:20 "...The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity..."

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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29-07-2017, 10:13 AM
RE: Science proves GOD!
(29-07-2017 09:01 AM)Vera Wrote:  Only, Eru was the same POS, leaving his "beloved" creation to fend for itself, like all the best god-monsters do Dodgy

He still was better than Yahu-Wahu* - no Abraham and Isaac story and his flood was primarily aimed at really shitty people.

Quote:Seriously, after I got the religious virus out of my system, it took me about 10 years to reread LOTR (and I wrote several of my papers on Tolkien in uni, including my master's thesis (though this was more because I *had* to make it more literary (I wanted to write about the idea of beauty), so I really *was* a fan)... the whole Catholic mentality is way too obvious. Not to mention the kinda seriously outdated classism ("Master, I'm gonna lay me body down for you to walk all over, if master so wishes") and the rest of it...

Catholicism may not be hard to see in Tolkien works but if you don't read Polish fantasy literature then you seen nothing Wink. I mean I like such literature but sometimes there is too much of this idiocy - Lord of all creation caring about heroes visiting church or eating meat? Give me a break writer dudes, at least try to keep your beliefs private.


*From Cartoon History of the Universe by Larry Gonick.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-07-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Science proves GOD!
Heh, I don't even have to look further than one of his closest friends, the most loathed (by me) C.S. Lewis. Dodgy

Not saying Tolkien is the pits, it's just... it's not you, Tolkien, it's me. I've changed, I'm not the same person I was when we first met Rolleyes

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29-07-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: Science proves GOD!
(29-07-2017 10:31 AM)Vera Wrote:  Heh, I don't even have to look further than one of his closest friends, the most loathed (by me) C.S. Lewis. Dodgy

I stopped reading his Narnia book after few pages. Something didn't click for me.

Quote:Not saying Tolkien is the pits, it's just... it's not you, Tolkien, it's me. I've changed, I'm not the same person I was when we first met Rolleyes

I have a fondness for Tolkien as it was one of my first serious books (can't remember if Bulgakov wasn't earlier). Only thing that I seriously dislike in his writings are Valar - can't find good rationale for their behavior even if book try to supply one. I just not buying it, just like I don't buy real word religions excuses for god inaction.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-07-2017, 11:04 AM
RE: Science proves GOD!
(29-07-2017 10:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I have a fondness for Tolkien as it was one of my first serious books (can't remember if Bulgakov wasn't earlier). Only thing that I seriously dislike in his writings are Valar - can't find good rationale for their behavior even if book try to supply one. I just not buying it, just like I don't buy real word religions excuses for god inaction.

I haven't read Silmarillion since I deconverted, so don't really remember the explanation, but can only imagine. I do remember thinking (and I use the word extremely loosely. Boy, was I dumb as a religionist Dodgy ) this a good explanation of why there are about a gazillion galaxies just for this pinnacle of creation that we are

"And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Iluvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars. And this habitation might seem a little thing to those who consider only the majesty of the Ainur, and not their terrible sharpness; as who should take the whole field of Arda for the foundation of a pillar and so raise it until the cone of its summit were more bitter than a needle; or who consider only the immeasurable vastness of the World, which still the Ainur are shaping, and not the minute precision to which they shape all things therein."

Facepalm

I read Narnia as an adult and blamed myself (as per usual Dodgy ) for not really enjoying it - as an adult you perceive children's books in a different way. Yet, I did read Ende's Neverending Story (as well as the Moomin books) as an adult, too, and while I do not love it as much as Momo, I still liked it a lot. Nah, Lewis is just a crappy writer.

And then there's his apologetics. And boy does *it* suck. Honestly, how anyone with even a modicum of intelligence (and honesty!) can seriously think it's not just good, but great, is beyond me. It is atrocious and an insult to humankind's intelligence (not to mention basic decency):

"There is no such thing as a sum of suffering, for no one suffers it. When we have reached the maximum that a single person can suffer, we have, no doubt, reached something very horrible, but we have reached all the suffering there ever can be in the universe. The addition of a million fellow-sufferers adds no more pain” Or, as Annie Dillard bluntly paraphrases it: The sum of human suffering we needn’t worry about: There is plenty of suffering, but no one ever suffers the sum of it."

What a vile, vile man! Censored

Did I mention I hate C.S. Lewis with the passion of a thousand supernovae?

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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29-07-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Science proves GOD!
(29-07-2017 11:04 AM)Vera Wrote:  I haven't read Silmarillion since I deconverted, so don't really remember the explanation, but can only imagine.

All in all it make some sense (Valars mainly didn't go to war cause they were afraid that this will result in death of mankind if I recall correctly; there were other considerations too) but for me it looks like inaction in that situation is what bunch of petulant children would do. The more powerful creatures you have the more difficult explaining their actions or lack of it is it seems - no one wonder why local sheriff didn't stop the murder, god is different beast.

Quote:I do remember thinking (and I use the word extremely loosely. Boy, was I dumb as a religionist Dodgy ) this a good explanation of why there are about a gazillion galaxies just for this pinnacle of creation that we are

"And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Iluvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars. And this habitation might seem a little thing to those who consider only the majesty of the Ainur, and not their terrible sharpness; as who should take the whole field of Arda for the foundation of a pillar and so raise it until the cone of its summit were more bitter than a needle; or who consider only the immeasurable vastness of the World, which still the Ainur are shaping, and not the minute precision to which they shape all things therein."

Facepalm

Never seen that as a problem. I accept that in Tolkien writings god exist and he chose how things go for reasons unknown and then give us meaningless "explanations".

Quote:I read Narnia as an adult and blamed myself (as per usual Dodgy ) for not really enjoying it - as an adult you perceive children's books in a different way. Yet, I did read Ende's Neverending Story (as well as the Moomin books) as an adult, too, and while I do not love it as much as Momo, I still liked it a lot. Nah, Lewis is just a crappy writer.

Well, I stopped after few pages so it seems that he really isn't great.

Quote:And then there's his apologetics. And boy does *it* suck. Honestly, how anyone with even a modicum of intelligence (and honesty!) can seriously think it's not just good, but great, is beyond me. It is atrocious and an insult to humankind's intelligence (not to mention basic decency):

"There is no such thing as a sum of suffering, for no one suffers it. When we have reached the maximum that a single person can suffer, we have, no doubt, reached something very horrible, but we have reached all the suffering there ever can be in the universe. The addition of a million fellow-sufferers adds no more pain” Or, as Annie Dillard bluntly paraphrases it: The sum of human suffering we needn’t worry about: There is plenty of suffering, but no one ever suffers the sum of it."

What a vile, vile man! Censored

I don't really know what to say. But I'm often dumbfounded when believers start speaking about suffering.

Quote:Did I mention I hate C.S. Lewis with the passion of a thousand supernovae?

Yes.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-07-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Science proves GOD!
Calling the Earth or the universe a "creation" is simply assuming the conclusion you want to reach. It demonstrates nothing. The only gap left for an external agent that actually does anything is in the initial creation of our universe, if it was created at all. After that, our excellent scientific models indicate that there is no unpredictable outside force tinkering with things.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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29-07-2017, 01:57 PM
RE: Science proves GOD!
(29-07-2017 01:46 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  The only gap left for an external agent that actually does anything is in the initial creation of our universe, if it was created at all. After that, our excellent scientific models indicate that there is no unpredictable outside force tinkering with things.

Not much of a God if he only created hydrogen and helium....
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