Science vs Morality
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05-07-2014, 01:36 PM
RE: Science vs Morality
(05-07-2014 09:31 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  If you are the type of person to derive positive value from struggles, then philosophies that say struggles in life give positive value does hold true for these types of people. But if you are like me who utterly detests struggles and finds no positive value from them and wants nothing to do with them, then this doesn't hold true for me or anyone else like me. Again, I do not mind struggles themselves. The only struggle I do mind is depression (so this is what we are talking about when I mean struggles). The ideal truth would be that feelings of pleasure (including love and many others) are the greatest gifts to you and absolutely no one or nothing can take these away from you. How do you feel about that? I bet you are feeling right now that this is the absolute truth of life and that this is the main thing that makes us as human beings.

But what if I told you right now that there is, in fact, something that can take these things away from you? And that would obviously be depression. So how do you feel now? I bet you feel enraged that such an inferior abomination exists. I bet now you utterly detest depression and that there is no positive value whatsoever you can deem from it.

It wouldn't make sense anyway to derive pleasure (positive value) from something that takes away your pleasure. Also, if you somehow think that depression and struggles in life give your life greater positive value, I feel that this would be false because you can have much more positive value through having a life of no struggles and depression. For example, if depression is something you think has given your life positive value because of the fact that you are socializing and sharing your feelings with those who also have depression (or any other positive value of such), the fact of the matter is that you can socialize and share your feelings in healthier ways without struggles or depression in life and this would have greater positive value because with depression, you have both a negative and a positive going on. You have depression (which is obviously negative) and you have socializing and sharing your feelings with others which is positive. But without depression, then you would have 2 positives. You would feel happy with no depression (this is the 1st positive) and you would socialize and share your feelings with others (which is the 2nd positive). This is why having no depression in life has greater positive value (obviously because two positive values in life are greater than just one positive value). So basically, gaining positive value through struggles and depression in life is pointless when you could have gained positive value through something much better (a life of no struggles and no depression).

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05-07-2014, 03:36 PM
RE: Science vs Morality
(05-07-2014 10:49 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  You make the mistake of assuming that the only key to happiness is a lack of depression - I submit to you that this is bullshit of the highest order. Surely you could just as easily make the same argument for those of us that also have physical disabilities - that the key to us having better lives would be not to have those conditions.
As for conditions that don't take away your pleasure or prevent you from having full enjoyment in life (enjoyment that you would still have even without the condition), then my argument would be false for these conditions. Even if the condition at first did hinder your pleasure, as long as you are able to fully bring back your pleasure, then my argument would be false in this situation. But if the condition is something that hinders your pleasure for your entire life, then my argument would be true.

Therefore, if you were to have depression (something that obviously hinders your pleasure), as long as you are able to make a full recovery from it and have all your pleasure back, then the key to happiness wouldn't necessarily be not having the depression to begin with, but making a full recovery from the depression. Otherwise, if you were to have depression that lasts your entire life that you can never make a full recovery from, then the key to happiness would be getting rid of this depression if possible through electric convulsive therapy or a lobotomy. Otherwise, you will never experience full happiness or even any significant amount of pleasure at all if your depression is something severe, chronic, and lifelong.
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05-07-2014, 03:43 PM
RE: Science vs Morality
(05-07-2014 03:36 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  ...Getting rid of this depression if possible through electric convulsive therapy or a lobotomy....

Blink

Dafaq?

Seriously? When might you respond to people asking if you understand the words you are using.

Or at least explaining the meanings YOU seem to have about the words you are using. Y'know? To help people at least get on the same page as your self?

Much cheers to all.
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05-07-2014, 03:50 PM
RE: Science vs Morality
If you're advocating a lobotomy as a viable procedure then you're either a troll or a psychopath...
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05-07-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: Science vs Morality
(05-07-2014 03:50 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  If you're advocating a lobotomy as a viable procedure then you're either a troll or a psychopath...
I just used that as an example in my argument. But go ahead and argue against that post now if you wish.
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05-07-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Science vs Morality
(05-07-2014 04:00 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 03:50 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  If you're advocating a lobotomy as a viable procedure then you're either a troll or a psychopath...
I just used that as an example in my argument. But go ahead and argue against that post now if you wish.

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(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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05-07-2014, 05:23 PM
RE: Science vs Morality
(05-07-2014 03:36 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Otherwise, if you were to have depression that lasts your entire life that you can never make a full recovery from, then the key to happiness would be getting rid of this depression if possible through electric convulsive therapy or a lobotomy. Otherwise, you will never experience full happiness or even any significant amount of pleasure at all if your depression is something severe, chronic, and lifelong.

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06-07-2014, 12:47 AM
RE: Science vs Morality
(05-07-2014 04:00 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  I just used that as an example in my argument. But go ahead and argue against that post now if you wish.

Okay.... then, let me say, it was a bad example/poor analogy.

Would you like to try something else to illustrate your point?

Much cheers to all.
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06-07-2014, 06:33 PM
RE: Science vs Morality
Here is scientific proof that pleasure is the greatest thing a human being can have. In this video, from 4:20-5:01 you hear the speech from Robert Sapolsky that proves this. He says that depression is the worst thing and backs it up. Therefore, since depression is the worst thing, that obviously means pleasure is the best thing above any other part of you (such as intelligence or anything else) and that losing anything else in life would hardly compare.

Here is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc
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06-07-2014, 06:36 PM
RE: Science vs Morality
I've seen this lecture several times and found it very interesting - but I think if you're saying that pleasure is the greatest thing someone can have then you clearly zoned out when he talks about lab-rats going to extreme lengths because they essentially become pleasure addicts...

Nice try though...
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