Scientific Realism or Antirealism
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22-04-2017, 05:33 AM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
If anyone thinks I'm being dumb, have misunderstood, or have missed Nails adjusting his stances into something more sensible, I'd be happy to hear about it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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22-04-2017, 07:15 AM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
There is one genuine point here, and I've no idea whether it was in any way intended to be the case:

We can only study our observations, and work backwards. We can't study reality. It's like we're seeing shadows of things, and assuming something is making the shadow.

But ultimately, even if it isn't, it makes no difference. The effect on our end is the same. What goes on behind the curtain sure would be fun to know, but it may as well be dancing space monkeys or that dog from the silent hill 2 ending. It's why all woo claims fall flat on their face, because they rely on positing causation from behind the curtain rather than what we can actually see the difference in. Same deal with philosophy divorced from science.

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22-04-2017, 08:09 AM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 01:32 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Is this guy a troll or not? Thanks to Poe's Law, I really can't tell. I'll assume not for the purposes of this message.

I apologise if I've been too rough. It may be that you genuinely believe everything you are typing. I hope you can see that I find it hard to believe when you literally switch your claims to the exact opposite of what you've been saying before.

They are, again, extreme positions. Your problem, if you ever choose to accept it, is that you see everything in binary terms. Wrong, or right. Absolutely true, or uselessly false. Perfect or totally flawed. I don't know how you ended up with this very theist-like mindset, but I hope one day that you're able to discard the dogma that is holding you back. You have all the pieces of the puzzle. You have the intelligence to put them together. But you don't like the picture on the box, so you're forever trying to ram pieces in where they don't fit.

Sure, in an abstract system of our design, or one we use to model reality, we can force things to be binary. No problem. But the user error you constantly refer to means that our link between our models and reality itself is always tenuous. So insisiting on absolute positions dooms you to waste your time forever. Sure, it would be nice if we could have certainty, and nice neat answers to reality. But we can't, simple as that. We either accept this, or retreat into fantasy. By doing the second, no practical results will ever emerge. No truth about reality will be learned either.

I'll make this my last message to you, as I've tried everything I can possibly think of to have meaningful discourse and it hasn't worked. Best of luck in the future.

I don't think he is a troll mate, he's actually a very bright youngster and like many clever people he's a bit quirky, he will mellow with age as will some of the strident arguments he currently presents. He's certainly able to argue way better than I could ever do. I used to find him infuriating but now I cant help but find myself kinda liking him.
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22-04-2017, 09:44 AM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
You're probably right.

I started disliking him when he proclaimed himself smarter than everyone else here, and implied that we are simply too stupid to understand why he is right. I've had him on ignore since then. I hope he's at least stopped saying such things now.

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22-04-2017, 10:19 AM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(22-04-2017 09:44 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  You're probably right.

I started disliking him when he proclaimed himself smarter than everyone else here, and implied that we are simply too stupid to understand why he is right. I've had him on ignore since then. I hope he's at least stopped saying such things now.

That's the arrogance of youth, I saw it with my own two boys they grew out of it and so will he, as far as I can see he has started to try and do this in a small way, perhaps its being a dad of two young twenty something lads myself but I just wish the best for him, I'm convinced that he will mellow and if not then his peers will shake it out of him for sure. I'm always a little wary of taking a polar opposite opinion to the majority because I got disrepped by someone who diddnt like me positive repping a real troll because I quite liked him inspite of his craziness, however I've learned to ignore such behaviour and just be myself
I totally get your frustration it can be sooo infuriating but he's engaging in discourse and is still here I hope his time here will be useful in any turn his academic life takes him to.
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22-04-2017, 10:42 AM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(22-04-2017 05:10 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I doubt many people would agree with his OP here where he misrepresents what scientific knowledge is. He's trying to imply that such knowledge affects reality, rather than simply modelling it, thus being at odds with beliefs not affecting reality.

When did I do that? I never implied that AT ALL.

Quote:If he's not saying this, then he's arguing with some extremely weird fringe position held by... no one I've ever even heard of. Some insane branch of "science".

I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm representing two views and asking for input as I'VE SAID FIVE TIMES.

Quote:Considering how long I've spent talking to him about what scientific knowledge is before, the idea that he still has no idea what it is becomes increasingly hard to believe. I know he's watched my videos where I've gone into extreme detail about this.

Your video about abstract systems was 10 mins long. It wasn't "extreme detail". And you claim in that video that mathematics is an abstract system that must be corroborated with reality (observed). You say that if someone were to count two things and find that it was actually three things then we would have to change our view that 1+1=2. But this is simply false. 1+1=2. This is based on logical laws and our axioms regarding quantity. When one understands what 1 and 2 mean and how to use operators like addition, then they automatically understand that 1+1=2. This is not something you corroborate with observation. It comes before observation. This is obvious because even in your video, you use numbers to count out the objects. By using numbers you're already using a the mathematical system. So when you count one object and another, you will always get two. You could not possibly get three. If 500 people claimed that they counted two objects and got three, you would know they did the counting wrong because the very possibility of that event is incoherent.

Quote:He's also stated before that he can somehow use philosophy to extract certainty about reality, meaning that he does actually think his beliefs can affect reality.

What? What an utter non-sequitur. Being able to know basic foundational principles with certainty does NOT mean I can control reality.

Quote:The stuff he claims is such a mess that I gave up ages ago trying to make any sense of it. I really tried discussing it, way longer than I probably should have from the point of view of my sanity.

You gave up ages ago trying to be honest about it.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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22-04-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(22-04-2017 10:19 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(22-04-2017 09:44 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  You're probably right.

I started disliking him when he proclaimed himself smarter than everyone else here, and implied that we are simply too stupid to understand why he is right. I've had him on ignore since then. I hope he's at least stopped saying such things now.

That's the arrogance of youth, I saw it with my own two boys they grew out of it and so will he, as far as I can see he has started to try and do this in a small way, perhaps its being a dad of two young twenty something lads myself but I just wish the best for him, I'm convinced that he will mellow and if not then his peers will shake it out of him for sure. I'm always a little wary of taking a polar opposite opinion to the majority because I got disrepped by someone who diddnt like me positive repping a real troll because I quite liked him inspite of his craziness, however I've learned to ignore such behaviour and just be myself
I totally get your frustration it can be sooo infuriating but he's engaging in discourse and is still here I hope his time here will be useful in any turn his academic life takes him to.

Yes I apologize for any arrogance I've displayed. I do think I've grown or am growing out of that state. Thanks for the fair shake though.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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22-04-2017, 10:50 AM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(22-04-2017 10:46 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(22-04-2017 10:19 AM)adey67 Wrote:  That's the arrogance of youth, I saw it with my own two boys they grew out of it and so will he, as far as I can see he has started to try and do this in a small way, perhaps its being a dad of two young twenty something lads myself but I just wish the best for him, I'm convinced that he will mellow and if not then his peers will shake it out of him for sure. I'm always a little wary of taking a polar opposite opinion to the majority because I got disrepped by someone who diddnt like me positive repping a real troll because I quite liked him inspite of his craziness, however I've learned to ignore such behaviour and just be myself
I totally get your frustration it can be sooo infuriating but he's engaging in discourse and is still here I hope his time here will be useful in any turn his academic life takes him to.

Yes I apologize for any arrogance I've displayed. I do think I've grown or am growing out of that state. Thanks for the fair shake though.

No worries my friend its good you are passionate about discourse and learning, like I said I wish you all the best and every happiness. Thumbsup
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22-04-2017, 10:51 AM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(22-04-2017 05:33 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  If anyone thinks I'm being dumb, have misunderstood, or have missed Nails adjusting his stances into something more sensible, I'd be happy to hear about it.

Well if you'd unignore me, you'd see I've been saying just that. Again sorry for the arrogant outburst where I claimed I was smarter than everyone else. I was obviously angry at the time, but it's not like I didn't believe it. I keep calling you dishonest in my posts. I just did it in one of my last responses. But this is that arrogance creeping out again. I will continue to try to minimize or extinguish it in future posts (and irl).

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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22-04-2017, 10:57 AM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(22-04-2017 07:15 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  There is one genuine point here, and I've no idea whether it was in any way intended to be the case:

We can only study our observations, and work backwards. We can't study reality. It's like we're seeing shadows of things, and assuming something is making the shadow.

But ultimately, even if it isn't, it makes no difference. The effect on our end is the same. What goes on behind the curtain sure would be fun to know, but it may as well be dancing space monkeys or that dog from the silent hill 2 ending. It's why all woo claims fall flat on their face, because they rely on positing causation from behind the curtain rather than what we can actually see the difference in. Same deal with philosophy divorced from science.

This is an antirealist approach to science. And I think I'm certainly leaning towards antirealism. Realism puts scientific knowledge far too high, claiming that it actually is true. They point to the No Miracles argument, but this could easily have been used in past centuries to justify assigning truth values to theories that we now understand to be false. The realist is trying to get science to be an enterprise that arrives at truth rather than just aiming at it, but in doing so they either restrict what can be called a theory or they assert that our best theories can never be shown to be false.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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