Scientific Realism or Antirealism
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21-04-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 11:12 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  It was just a general post, it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular Smile

Well, the toilet paper part is Nails. That's what he is doing.

Wait you think I'm throwing toilet paper at science????? How did you get there? I'm in a thread discussing the philosophy of science and you think I'm dissing science... brilliant.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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21-04-2017, 12:47 PM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2017 12:59 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 12:10 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Dreaming is not perception though. When we dream our subconscious mind rearranges what we have perceived into new combinations that exist only fleetingly in the mind just as our imagination does I when we are awake. Ever noticed that those "perceptions" fade very quickly on waking. This morning I had one of the strangest and most vivid dreams I've ever had. Yet I struggled hard to describe it to my wife only a few minutes later. It wasn't real. It was a product of my imagination. And the primacy of existence assures us of this fact.

It is my contention that dreaming is misapplied perception, something we reflexively do because we don't know we are asleep. We think we are awake and operating in the real world instead of dreaming because the critical-thinking part of our brains isn't functioning. Yes, we superimpose bits we have learned through real-world experiences, but I think dreaming is an attenuated-conscious rather than altogether subconscious process.

The reason our memories of dreams fade so quickly is because of state-specific amnesia. Our usual ability to process information into our memories is also largely offline when we are dreaming, so unless we process a dream immediately after we wake up, we will likely forget it altogether.

During a nap today, I had a dream of talking to a hoard of spiders on the hardwood floor. The largest one had a smiley face.

Smile

This dream was likely inspired in part because we have an ant problem in our house, and the exterminator was coming this afternoon. Vague memories get transmogrified.
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21-04-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 12:47 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 12:10 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Dreaming is not perception though. When we dream our subconscious mind rearranges what we have perceived into new combinations that exist only fleetingly in the mind just as our imagination does I when we are awake. Ever noticed that those "perceptions" fade very quickly on waking. This morning I had one of the strangest and most vivid dreams I've ever had. Yet I struggled hard to describe it to my wife only a few minutes later. It wasn't real. It was a product of my imagination. And the primacy of existence assures us of this fact.

It is my contention that dreaming is misapplied perception, something we reflexively do because we don't know we are asleep. We think we are awake and operating in the real world instead of dreaming because the critical-thinking part of our brains isn't functioning. Yes, we superimpose bits we have learned through real waking experiences, but I think it is an attenuated-conscious rather than subconscious process. The reason our memories of dreams fade so quickly is because of state-specific amnesia. Our usual ability to process information into our memories is also largely offline when we are dreaming, so unless we process a dream immediately after we wake up, we will likely forget it altogether.

I had a dream of talking to a hoard of spiders on the wood floor during a nap today. The largest one had a smiley face.

Smile

You'er probably right. I still have some perceptions while I'm sleeping. Like once when my cat attacked my foot, in my dream a snake was biting me. When we dream what we are perceiving is the activity of our consciousness whether it is our sub-conscious or our sleepy conscious mind but in the case of dreaming what we perceive is a secondary object, i.e., our minds working with something we've already perceived. Just as we can perceive our own conscious activity while we are awake through introspection. The activity of the mind is only a secondary object. Without any perceptions to work with we'd not be able to perceive our own mind's operation. Or rather we'd perceive our own mind doing nothing.

This is another problem with the proposition that a consciousness created all it's own objects as in the Christian belief. A mind can only be aware of itself once it has perceived something external to itself. That's my thinking anyway.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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21-04-2017, 01:07 PM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 12:59 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You'er probably right. I still have some perceptions while I'm sleeping. Like once when my cat attacked my foot, in my dream a snake was biting me. When we dream what we are perceiving is the activity of our consciousness whether it is our sub-conscious or our sleepy conscious mind but in the case of dreaming what we perceive is a secondary object, i.e., our minds working with something we've already perceived. Just as we can perceive our own conscious activity while we are awake through introspection. The activity of the mind is only a secondary object. Without any perceptions to work with we'd not be able to perceive our own mind's operation. Or rather we'd perceive our own mind doing nothing.

This is another problem with the proposition that a consciousness created all it's own objects as in the Christian belief. A mind can only be aware of itself once it has perceived something external to itself. That's my thinking anyway.

Even during dreaming, random REM brain activation provides a "screen" on which to project dreaming perceptions. Non-REM dreams are much more thought-like and less vivid for this reason.

Similarly, people can impose dreaming-style perceptions on waking occurrences, which is how dogmatism derives its power over human consciousness. Seeing should not be believing without critical assessments.

I agree that the qualitative differences between waking and dreaming perceptions gives the lie to the idea that even the waking world is a product of our minds alone. We simply don't have the mental processing power to create such detailed and consistent perceptions without a real world to support them.
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21-04-2017, 01:20 PM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 10:48 AM)Naielis Wrote:  We do know enough to trust the scientific method. But the philosophy of science provides an analysis of what science actually does. And I came to the philosophy section to discuss philosophy. I didn't think I would get so much anti-philosophy sentiment from people browsing the philosophy section.
Fair point. Actually I got to this via the most recent threads thing so didn't see it was in philosophy section. I will now cease interaction with your glorious self, and go be a tit somewhere else. You carry on being a tit here Smile

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-04-2017, 01:39 PM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 01:20 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 10:48 AM)Naielis Wrote:  We do know enough to trust the scientific method. But the philosophy of science provides an analysis of what science actually does. And I came to the philosophy section to discuss philosophy. I didn't think I would get so much anti-philosophy sentiment from people browsing the philosophy section.
Fair point. Actually I got to this via the most recent threads thing so didn't see it was in philosophy section. I will now cease interaction with your glorious self, and go be a tit somewhere else. You carry on being a tit here Smile

At least he acknowledged my gloriousness... lol.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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21-04-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 01:07 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 12:59 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You'er probably right. I still have some perceptions while I'm sleeping. Like once when my cat attacked my foot, in my dream a snake was biting me. When we dream what we are perceiving is the activity of our consciousness whether it is our sub-conscious or our sleepy conscious mind but in the case of dreaming what we perceive is a secondary object, i.e., our minds working with something we've already perceived. Just as we can perceive our own conscious activity while we are awake through introspection. The activity of the mind is only a secondary object. Without any perceptions to work with we'd not be able to perceive our own mind's operation. Or rather we'd perceive our own mind doing nothing.

This is another problem with the proposition that a consciousness created all it's own objects as in the Christian belief. A mind can only be aware of itself once it has perceived something external to itself. That's my thinking anyway.

Even during dreaming, random REM brain activation provides a "screen" on which to project dreaming perceptions. Non-REM dreams are much more thought-like and less vivid for this reason.

Similarly, people can impose dreaming-style perceptions on waking occurrences, which is how dogmatism derives its power over human consciousness. Seeing should not be believing without critical assessments.

I agree that the qualitative differences between waking and dreaming perceptions gives the lie to the idea that even the waking world is a product of our minds alone. We simply don't have the mental processing power to create such detailed and consistent perceptions without a real world to support them.

Here's an interesting thought experiment for you to try though I'll warn you it will probably give you a headache. Try to imagine something totally new that you've never seen before without making use of things you've already perceived. I use to try and do this when I was very young. I'd try to image an animal on an alien world. No matter how hard I tried, everything that I came up with was some combination of things I already new about such as a lizard with wings and a fur rough and golden scales with a beaver's tail. I couldn't do it and I spent hours and hours trying. It drove me crazy and gave me a massive headache. I didn't understand how the imagination worked and now that I do I avoid doing this. I know it is impossible. Even our imagination starts with perception. Try it for yourself or maybe you have already. Then you'll probably understand what I mean.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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21-04-2017, 05:08 PM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 09:23 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I can and do scoff at anyone who claims certainty about anything beyond analytic statements and logical tautologies.

So just a quick question about this: do you think the results mathematical proofs are known with certainty? I believe they are because they follow from the laws of logic and basic axioms establishing our understanding of quantity.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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21-04-2017, 06:20 PM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 12:07 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 12:02 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Observation by what means?

I was thinking in terms of our checking our own senses. Most faulty observations, in waking at least, are easily corrected by double-takes because the underlying reality is still there in most cases. This is why faulty sensory information reports are typically one-offs of various kinds, like sightings of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. This is a reason why science requires repetitions.

One has to go no further than watching an illusionist perform to realize that we cannot always trust our senses and one of the big draws of magic shows. Thumbsup

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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21-04-2017, 06:25 PM
RE: Scientific Realism or Antirealism
(21-04-2017 06:20 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  One has to go no further than watching an illusionist perform to realize that we cannot always trust our senses and one of the big draws of magic shows. Thumbsup

Good example.

I just saw (with my own eyes) an illusionist bend a spoon without seeming to bend it himself on the Today Show this morning. Hands up from everyone who believes what I saw was true.

Hobo
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