Scientific Theory
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26-08-2010, 10:26 AM
Scientific Theory
Basically a scientific theory tells why something is the way it is. Also, that more information is possible to come available and build on it. Evolution is the prime example.
Theist say that evolution is just a theory and fail to realize the difference between an every day theory, and a scientific one. Basically they fail to understand it, and dismiss it as something requiring faith. Evolution as we know is true, and what makes it a scientific theory is that we cannot test something over a period of millions of years that it takes to evolve, but the evidence for it is strong.
My point is do you all think that the theory of evolution destroys the entire creation theory? I think it does.
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26-08-2010, 10:55 AM
RE: Scientific Theory
Depending on the creation story. Evolution is not needed to destroy the biblical creation story, all you need for that is logic.
Also, we cant test something over a period of millions of years, but we can test some other organisms with short lifes (more generations per a certain amount of time). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_lon...experiment

Also, when someone denies evolution, he/she also denies inheritance, breeding and viruses evolving (or does god create a new virus to bully us right after we get one in control with medical science?). Theres probably much more to list, but I dont think nobody here denies evolution, so theres no point in writing this. Then why did I?

Correct me when I'm wrong.
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26-08-2010, 03:06 PM
RE: Scientific Theory
I agree with your point. Logic is really all that is needed to dismiss creationism. Yeah I probably shouls have saved this for when a theist came online lol
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26-08-2010, 03:38 PM
RE: Scientific Theory
Theists do not deny micro evolution, i.e. changes within a species. What they deny is macro evolution, where a new species evolves from a previous species. So, a virus changing does not defeat their logic, but mammals evolving from the same organisms that spawned amphibians does defeat their argument, at least if you take the bible literally. I've seen theists who claim that God created all life over time and that evolution is his work. I suppose that could be true in the sense that that I can't prove it's not, but it really doesn't mesh up with the bible.

Btw, I believe that is somewhat the position of the Catholic Church. They don't come out and say that but they also don't take the position that the Earth is <10,000 years old.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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26-08-2010, 05:18 PM
RE: Scientific Theory
Hey.

Perhaps someone can correct me but this is how I understand it. The power of science is that it says, something is this way or works this way ALL THE TIME. We know that's true BECAUSE we can test the theory over and over again. This takes the guess work out. It's WHY scientific truth is viewed as so powerful.

If something can't be proven, it can't be proven. To say, "well, close enough," is really to destroy the reason science is science and not divination.

So while saying that evolution is "close enough" to scientific fact might actually be true, the question is, where is the line drawn? Is the integrity of science at stake if, out of convenience, we start saying things are scientific fact because they're "close enough"? Clearly, scientists operate with theories that are close enough. From what I understand, the Theory of Relativity is untestable. But physicists use it cause it's close enough. But they'd never call it the Law of Relativity.

As far as faith goes, that final leap from "close enough" to "I believe it" is a leap of faith. You have to believe that it's not gonna let you down. Believing in gravity is not because gravity is a law. So's thermodynamics. Relativity and evolution are not. So yeah, it's a leap of faith. Not much of a chasm, more like a crack in the sidewalk, but it is what it is.

That's how I understand the argument.

As far as dismissing evolution because it's still a theory, that's just foolish. But questioning it is within the realm of the reasonable. I mean, I love evolution, but I think that questioning it is fair game.

As far as creation, I think that it kind of crushes a literal interpretation of The Book of Genesis, but I don't think it destroys the idea of God or a creator. It does show that the evolutionary algorithm doesn't need to be managed, it runs on it's own, but it doesn't say that a creator couldn't have designed the algorithm. So it pretty much guts Creationism, but not God.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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26-08-2010, 05:30 PM
RE: Scientific Theory
Evolution is a fact. That evolution has happened has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. There are thousands of transitional fossils and the fossil record clearly sets forth the process by which species evolved.

The theory aspect revolves around how and why this happened. On that topic, there is a hypothesis that seems to explain how and why evolution occurs but that hypothesis is not 100% proven. That's why it's called a theory.

The difference between religion and science is science constantly seeks truth and will update it's theories and finding as new evidence becomes available. Religion is incapable of that type of analysis.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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26-08-2010, 08:26 PM
RE: Scientific Theory
I see where you all are coming from. That evolution debunks creationism to an extent. That genesis, the creationist account, taken literally is debunked by evolution, but evolution does not eliminate a deity. I agree with you all on that information. Most theist will try to debunk evolution, on the other hand, becuase they want Yahweh or what ever deity they worship to be in full control.
All in all, we all agree that evolution is real like gravity. That evolution helps us understand why we are the way we are, and not Genesis.
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26-08-2010, 08:44 PM
RE: Scientific Theory
Quote:but evolution does not eliminate a deity.

It may not eliminate a deity but it certainly debunks any religion based on the Old Testament, which accounts for Judaism and Christianity (I'm not sure about Islam so let's leave that aside). The Bible says that God created the Earth and everything on it in 6 days. Christians and Jews basically fall into 2 camps on this: those who claim that the overwhelming scientific evidence that proves this is all made up (and this far exceeds just the biological study of evolution) and those who seek to explain the Bible to fit into scientific fact, like claiming that to God a day is millions of years long, despite the fact that the Bible does not give any indication that a day is anything but a day.

The problems with the former argument are well document, and include little trivialities like the stellar parallax, the geologically documented age of the Earth, and of course that pesky fossil record. So, true believers will just stick their fingers in their ears and scream "la la la la la la la" at all that science mumbo jumbo. To some extent, I can sort of respect that position.

The latter argument starts to fall into the realm of "just making shit up". There is no independent grounds to believe in a deity outside of religious texts. The Bible, both old and new testament, the Q'uran, etc. are all purportedly the word of a divine being who spoke to someone and they wrote down, verbatim, what He said. Once you deviate from that, there is no basis, religious or scientific, to rest your belief on.

Even a relatively new religion like Mormonism purports to come from the word of God himself. If you don't claim that divine origin for your beliefs, then there is not even an irrational basis for that belief. It's like saying I believe my stapler is God, or that I believe that God is a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Jumping topics slightly, but this is my issue with people who claim to be agnostics. There is no logical basis for agnosticism. Believing in a God that is not based on some established religion just falls into the realm of "just making shit up", with the possible exception of someone claiming they have now spoken to God and are starting a new religion. There is no basis anywhere for this claim of "I believe in a God who is all seeing and all powerful but I don't believe he is the God of the Bible or as set forth in religion". I guess you could argue you disagree with the various interpretations of the religion and come up with you own. I guess you can do that and it makes you no more irrational than the various, for example, Protestant sects but when you deviate from where religion gets its authority, you're just making shit up.

So, no, while evolution does not specifically debunk religion, it does basically debunk any religion founded off the Old Testament.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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26-08-2010, 10:04 PM
 
RE: Scientific Theory
I'm pretty sure that evolution debunks 'how did we get here' myth I've heard.

It would be dishonest to say "it is impossible that god created the universe". What is more honest is to say (to paraphrase 'the God Delusion') is the it is extremely unlikely, given the evidence. So if one wishes to hang a hat on that slim thread of likelihood, there's a basis for religious belief. Granted, I'd be hard pressed to associate creation of the universe by daddy yahoo be doobie and evolution, but something is better than nothing as far as the god people are concerned.
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27-08-2010, 03:22 AM
 
RE: Scientific Theory
If you look at the history of mankind, every time something couldn't be easily explained either credit or blame was given to a mythical god. As knowledge increased the gods died off. Since we fail to have all the answers and it's not OK to say we don't know, we still need at least one god to fill in any gaps.
As far as God creating evoloution too that falls apart unless we accept the fact that we are now more evolved than God since we were created in his image... Apparently God looks like the cavemen on the insurance commercials.
Oh crap, now I did it. I'm going to burn in Hell for eternity now.
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