"Scientism, logic, memes are locked into an arguably limited system"
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23-07-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: "Scientism, logic, memes are locked into an arguably limited system"
(23-07-2015 09:32 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 09:23 AM)Chas Wrote:  In that case, there can be no supernatural explanations for events or effects in the natural world.

That's fine by me, I could quibble over this. But since I hardly ever use the word "supernatural", because the line in which something would be deemed supernatural vs natural, seems quite vague to me, I see no reason to argue the point.

For a while teleology, the moral law, intrinsic purposes and meanings, were all a part of what was commonly deemed a part of the natural order. If we can reincorporate them in such a way today, than I take no issue with that.

There is no evidence of a teleology for the universe or even for humankind.
There is no evidence of a moral law that exists outside our evolved minds and emotions.
There is no evidence of an intrinsic meaning to existence.

You can spin endless philosophical arguments for one view or another, but without evidence its just mental masturbation.
Secular humanism comes closest to incorporating acceptable morality and meaning in our societies, in my opinion.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-07-2015, 10:15 AM
RE: "Scientism, logic, memes are locked into an arguably limited system"
(23-07-2015 09:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 09:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  Their arguments are essentially argument from incredulity. They don't see how mind can emerge from brain. Chalmers is some kind of dualist.

And do you mean Stoppard the playwright?

All three will likely classify as a dualist, and yes I did mean Stoppard the playwright, but they also see themselves as unbelievers as well.

Dualism is incoherent and unsupportable.

Quote:What makes the individuals interesting for me is that they've created a sort of corner, where they exist on one end, and the other end is occupied by Alex Rosenberg, who's basically Daniel Dennett but with a spine.

Meaning what? It is amusing that you use unexplained insults to deride people - ad hominem attacks like that show your dishonesty.

Quote:Both corners are offensive to many atheists, who try to find some vague middle ground between the two, without recognizing how slippery the ground underneath them is.

You don't have a clue what "most atheists" think. Just another of your uninformed generalizations.

Quote:For theists this all is very interesting, for atheists it's likely all very irritating.

What exactly is irritating? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-07-2015, 11:47 AM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2015 11:51 AM by Tomasia.)
"Scientism, logic, memes are locked into an arguably limited system"
(23-07-2015 10:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  Dualism is incoherent and unsupportable.

How about physicalism? Is that coherent and supportable?

Quote:Meaning what? It is amusing that you use unexplained insults to deride people - ad hominem attacks like that show your dishonesty.

What ad hominem attack? Against Dennett? Because I referred to Rosenberg as Dennett but with a spine? Im sure there's far worse insults flung at public figures here than that one.

Quote:You don't have a clue what "most atheists" think. Just another of your uninformed generalizations.

Do you have a clue? If so, what makes you think you know more about what other atheists believe than I do?

Do you have a clue as to what most theist believe?

Of course we'd both be gauging our own personal interactions, and the various perspectives we may have read or heard,and arguing as to which of ours is more representative.


Quote:What exactly is irritating? Consider

The Rosenbergs and Nagels.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-07-2015, 01:13 PM
RE: "Scientism, logic, memes are locked into an arguably limited system"
(23-07-2015 11:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 10:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  Dualism is incoherent and unsupportable.

How about physicalism? Is that coherent and supportable?

It is not incoherent and all of the evidence from neuroscience supports it, unlike dualism for which there is no evidence of even a possible mechanism.

Quote:
Quote:Meaning what? It is amusing that you use unexplained insults to deride people - ad hominem attacks like that show your dishonesty.

What ad hominem attack? Against Dennett? Because I referred to Rosenberg as Dennett but with a spine? Im sure there's far worse insults flung at public figures here than that one.

Yes, because of the insult you cast. How about actually explaining the remark.

Quote:
Quote:You don't have a clue what "most atheists" think. Just another of your uninformed generalizations.

Do you have a clue? If so, what makes you think you know more about what other atheists believe than I do?

Did I claim to? No.

Quote:Do you have a clue as to what most theist believe?

Did I claim to? No.

Quote:Of course we'd both be gauging our own personal interactions, and the various perspectives we may have read or heard,and arguing as to which of ours is more representative.

Did I make a claim on this? No.

Quote:
Quote:What exactly is irritating? Consider

The Rosenbergs and Nagels.

Why?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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