Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
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10-04-2012, 11:42 AM
RE: Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
(10-04-2012 10:53 AM)Malleus Wrote:  I am pretty sure that you're missing the point of the world we live in.

That a mofo don't know the difference between morality and ethics. When a package arrives in the emergency ward for repair, it is the technician's job to effect those repairs, or the technician ain't doing his job. Hospitals and health care are ethical considerations brought about by the will of the majority. Being a doctor often combines the moral imperative of do no harm with the conditioned ethical standard of do a good job. Getting in the way of a man trying to do his job is fail.

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10-04-2012, 11:54 AM
RE: Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
(09-04-2012 07:50 PM)Thomas Wrote:  There was a car accident where a Scientologist was badly injured. When he was brought into the emergency room the medical staff noticed a tag on a chain around his neck that stated, "Scientologist. Do not perform any medical procedures."
The medical staff debated to honor his beliefs or to save his life. They decided that his religious conviction should be honored and they allowed him to die, basically bleeding out.
Did they do the right thing?
Yes. But I wonder if it had not mentioned a religion would they have done the same? Did this really happen?

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10-04-2012, 11:56 AM
RE: Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
When my dad was in the final stages of cancer he stated quite clearly that he had had enough of the treatments. His battled with cancer was compounded by a stroke (or many) and a near fatal car crash). He had a DNR and a living will stating much the same. However, in the facility where he spent his last few days, I still had to speak for the family and agree to his wishes. My siblings managed to vanish just prior to that meeting, heading back out of state.

Dad was, at that point, still of quite sound mind. He wasn't completely addled by the pain meds he would need in just a few days. He was a veterinarian and had enough knowledge of medicine to make an informed decision. He was ready to die and told me so. Nothing could be done for him in that he would never be well again and he knew that all that lie ahead was the systematic shutting down of his organs as it had already started. He knew what was ahead.

He did everything he was supposed to do as far as having all the right documents and having stated what he wanted to the doctors and staff. They still needed my approval and his lady-friend was also there and agreed that it's what he wanted. Six days later, he was gone.

Seems off that a tag or necklace or whatever would be enough. Dad made it very clear what he wanted to everyone in all ways and it was still a struggle to honor his wishes. Course we are sure that his lady helped things along with the admin of extra pain meds. But we are okay with that...his life was over and she eased his pain.

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10-04-2012, 12:32 PM
RE: Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
Sorry to hear that, Anjele. In your case, I think that the doctors might have been a bit over-zealous to cover their asses. Your father's instructions should have been enough. There are quite a bunch of dumb families out there who will not give consent even if staying alive is literally nothing more than perpetual torture. It's not right to give them a say in it.

The DNR tag is a bit too loose to be binding, but it probably gives enough grounds for the bastard to sue the man who saved his life.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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10-04-2012, 01:12 PM
RE: Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
(10-04-2012 02:03 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I have a living will which indicates that no excessive measures be taken to keep me alive, under expressed circumstances. I don't think it holds much weight however, especially if one ends up in a Catholic hospital.


My husband had a living will, but it apparently wasn't enough, he should have had a "do not rescuscitate" also.

I had to fight the medics who were hellbent on reviving him after he died at home of cancer.

Why would you revive a person who died of something incurable, is he supposed to die again? How many times?

What made them finally quit the argument is when they looked at his living will and saw the personal statement that he was an atheist and didn't want any religious services.

Then they threw the living will down (landed on my husband) and left the scene without looking back or saying a word.

Having to argue with medics at a time like that is trying to say the least. I was just glad when they left, however impolite that was.

I highly recommend you take out a DNR and give it to someone you trust to bring it out at the proper time. I wouldn't file it with the hospital because I wouldn't trust them to make this call at the proper time. When there is hope, there is hope. When there isn't, there isn't.

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10-04-2012, 02:00 PM
RE: Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
I sure understand Dom. Dad had DNRs at a half dozen hospitals and facilities and his living will was less than two week old, it had been updated and still I had to stand up for his right to die.
I heard him tell the doctor that his kids knew what he wanted...apparently so did my siblings who then exited stage left.

A time like that is not the time to have to deal with such things. It's like they (the medical community and legal) keep saying, are you sure, are you really sure, are you still sure. Dad made his decision but I had to fight to have it carried out.

You have to have someone advocate for you when you can't fight yourself.

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10-04-2012, 02:05 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 02:14 PM by Thomas.)
RE: Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
(10-04-2012 11:54 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Yes. But I wonder if it had not mentioned a religion would they have done the same? Did this really happen?

You've nailed it. The religious freedom literally was the show stopper.
Yes, this is was an actual case per our discussion group moderator, who's wife was the nurse. I could dig deeper, but we can assume this is true for the philosophical discussion regardless.
If the guy was not wearing the tag "Christian Scientist, do not perform any medical procedure", and a tag saying instead, "Atheist, just let me die" I don't know what they would have done, but we could assume that they would not have considered religious freedom in their choice.

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10-04-2012, 04:00 PM
RE: Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
Well just to be clear, I am currently going through nursing school. I also had to complete a CPR class this semester. If a patient has a DNR we are not allowed to perform CPR. A necklace is not binding and we are instructed to only follow legal binding documents or we could loose our license. It also depends on the facility's policies. I'm quite aware of the silly suing that happens but fortunately we are trained to follow current laws. I'll be in clinicals on the 16th. We have been bombarded with all of the do's and don'ts for someone with DNR. If we are caring for a patient and a DNR is not present then we are to perform CPR period. A necklace is not a legal binding document period.

We have to respect religious preferences while caring for a client even if it's contraindicated by medicine. This is only after all of the admissions and legalities have been taken care of. If said client comes in with a necklace and is unconscious then we can not go on that information alone. It could be a keep sake, it could be just a fad, it could be anything. It's not legal. Save the client then ask questions later. It's much easier to save the client than let them die. After their dead, well their dead...no take backs.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather take my chances by saving someone than to go to prison for manslaughter (other than obviously saving someone's life simply because it's the right thing to do).

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10-04-2012, 04:06 PM
RE: Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
Speaking for myself, was I the said Scientologist, I'd be so damn grateful that I was still around that the thought of suing anyone wouldn't even cross my mind. Good points re the legalities though Clint. If they took the bracelet as binding they could equally end up in hot water with the family. Medical ethics seems like a minefield.
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10-04-2012, 04:34 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 04:45 PM by Malleus.)
RE: Scientology and Respect for Religious Belief
We're missing an important and entertaining law and I think it should be adopted, especially because they love to say that life is sacred: We're going to go ahead and save your sorry ass and, when you come out of it, if you're unhappy about being alive, we'll be happy to kill you just as painfully as you would have died without us. Yeah, I like this rule.

I know it's easy to go to church and be all saintly and sign an "I'll die for Jesus/Xenu" agreement, especially when they don't expect it to ever happen to them because they're all holy and shit. I'm pretty sure they'll buy the T-shirt too, but it would be fun to see them put their money where their mouth is and go through with it when they can truly feel how real it is.

I feel you, Clint; you're probably doing the right thing, but it's got to suck to be in your shoes when an asshole chooses to punish you for saving their life. Gosh, it frustrates me. Did I mention how much I hate religions?

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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