Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
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21-09-2014, 09:57 AM
RE: Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
(21-09-2014 09:52 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  
(21-09-2014 08:46 AM)cjlr Wrote:  That, and a currency. Those tend to be useful.

The currency's irrelevant if you don't have any money and have to go to a foodbank because it's all been spent on Trident.

That actually makes it even more relevant. That is the situation that separates Spain from Florida. Both were bankrupt but Florida had a federal currency to lean against whereas Spain was stuck using the Euro (a situation an independent Scotland would have been forced into to join the EU) Spain actually ran out of money. The results speak for themselves.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-09-2014, 09:59 AM
RE: Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
(21-09-2014 09:52 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  
(21-09-2014 08:46 AM)cjlr Wrote:  That, and a currency. Those tend to be useful.

The currency's irrelevant if you don't have any money and have to go to a foodbank because it's all been spent on Trident.

Yes. Trident is literally the only thing the UK spends money on.
(question: how does the cost of Trident to Scottish taxpayers compare to the payout to Scottish taxpayers of all the Defense bases and personnel in Scotland, and associated industries like shipbuilding?)

If one wishes to make an ideological case against nuclear weapons, then very well; that's a different matter. But then the economics are beside the point.

The problems facing Scotland wouldn't magically disappear on independence; they'd get worse.

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21-09-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
(21-09-2014 08:43 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-09-2014 04:50 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Cameron and Miliband ditch devo timetable vow

That's what the 'lol conspiracy' crowd is going for?

The actual statements by the people in question are to be ignored (because reasons), and an anonymous third party at a biased source repeating Salmond's version of a conversation with Cameron is supposed to be reliable? Really?

Are you even trying to counter what I am posting or just coming up with phrases like " 'lol conspiracy' crowd", "feels" and "reasons", "ALL A SCAM WAKE UP SHEEPLE" ? Have I used language like that in this thread?

I've posted links from respectable news papers quoting high ranking politicians with power and what they have said. You respond by throwing words around to create an impression and strawmanning with allusions to vote rigging conspiracies (which I have never claimed by the way).

Yet this doesn't stop you from quoting Gordon Brown who is now nothing more than a back bencher with no real power.

I demonstrate how the Better Together campaign promises have already started to fall. You respond by saying that Better Together didn't speak for the Westminster parties even though the campaign was run by many Westminster MPs. Whatever pedentry you try to spin with this one you can't get around that people on the No side have been lying.

I link to broken election pledges from all the main parties and demonstrate that there is a culture of making rash promises in Westminster with no intention of keeping them and all you can do is strawman by accusing me of saying that all politicians always lie.


You really are clutching at straws now.
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21-09-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
(21-09-2014 08:46 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-09-2014 06:50 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  As opposed to Better Together and the main parties in Westminster who had nothing concrete to offer other than the status quo of foodbanks and Trident?

That, and a currency. Those tend to be useful.

Westminster couldn't have stopped an independent Scotland using the pound despite what they claimed. Many countries use the dollar. So Better Together weren't offering a currency ... so there's that (as you like to say).
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21-09-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
(21-09-2014 09:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That actually makes it even more relevant. That is the situation that separates Spain from Florida. Both were bankrupt but Florida had a federal currency to lean against whereas Spain was stuck using the Euro (a situation an independent Scotland would have been forced into to join the EU) Spain actually ran out of money. The results speak for themselves.

You are assuming that Scotland would not be in the EU if they got independence. They already are in the EU. This is important for two reasons.

1) One of the main difficulties in joining the EU is that your laws have to be changed to comply with the laws of the EU. Scotland has its own legal system which already complies.

2) Scotland consists of 5 million EU citizens. They were not voting to leave the EU, they were voting to leave the United Kingdom. If it was a Yes vote then they are still EU citizens. That means for Scotland to no longer be part of the EU, those 5 million citizens would have to be ejected from the EU and there is no legal mechanism for that. Such a move would be open to considerable legal challenge.

You are also assuming that an independent Scotland would be poor. It has considerable natural resources and industries.
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21-09-2014, 10:32 AM
RE: Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
(21-09-2014 09:59 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The problems facing Scotland wouldn't magically disappear on independence; they'd get worse.

Vague statement not backed up by evidence.

As I said, you're not even trying now.
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21-09-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
(21-09-2014 10:30 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(21-09-2014 09:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That actually makes it even more relevant. That is the situation that separates Spain from Florida. Both were bankrupt but Florida had a federal currency to lean against whereas Spain was stuck using the Euro (a situation an independent Scotland would have been forced into to join the EU) Spain actually ran out of money. The results speak for themselves.

You are assuming that Scotland would not be in the EU if they got independence. They already are in the EU. This is important for two reasons.

1) One of the main difficulties in joining the EU is that your laws have to be changed to comply with the laws of the EU. Scotland has its own legal system which already complies.

2) Scotland consists of 5 million EU citizens. They were not voting to leave the EU, they were voting to leave the United Kingdom. If it was a Yes vote then they are still EU citizens. That means for Scotland to no longer be part of the EU, those 5 million citizens would have to be ejected from the EU and there is no legal mechanism for that. Such a move would be open to considerable legal challenge.

You are also assuming that an independent Scotland would be poor. It has considerable natural resources and industries.

What makes you think a new entity "Scotland" would inherit EU membership? That was never hashed out (yet another thing the SNP had no plans for) and given the situation in Spain (and other nations where regional independence movements are popular) there would have been considerable opposition for such a grandfather clause.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-09-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
I know it's not the same but in Ireland, the North and the Irish Republic jurisdictions use two distinct currencies - the euro and pound sterling, a growing amount of commercial activity is carried out on an all-island basis. This has been facilitated by the two jurisdictions' shared membership of the European Union. I have to wonder if this would be a considered way to move toward a transitional independence.

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21-09-2014, 11:04 AM
RE: Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
(21-09-2014 10:43 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  What makes you think a new entity "Scotland" would inherit EU membership?

Well, a form president of the EU parliament said it. You also have to wonder why Westminster didn't ask for specific clarification, as they were entitled to, from the EU. They could easily have resolved the issue, yet they deliberately left it vague. For the record, a request for clarification would have had to come from the member government itself, ie Westminster. It was their decision to not ask the question.

You have to wonder why.

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21-09-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: Scottish Independance ahead in Poll
(21-09-2014 11:01 AM)kim Wrote:  I know it's not the same but in Ireland, the North and the Irish Republic jurisdictions use two distinct currencies - the euro and pound sterling, a growing amount of commercial activity is carried out on an all-island basis. This has been facilitated by the two jurisdictions' shared membership of the European Union. I have to wonder if this would be a considered way to move toward a transitional independence.

I always assumed anything that happened currency wise was a temporary measure before joining the Euro. I'd have no problem with the Euro, I use it every day.

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