Scripture Twisting - Zechariah 12
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22-02-2016, 12:08 PM
RE: Scripture Twisting - Zechariah 12
(22-02-2016 10:54 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-02-2016 12:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  Um. Is it possible to get an academic source for some of these things? I'd love to poke some of my FB friends with a certified mistranslation like this but if I point them to a forum post they'll just laugh at me and say you're lying Sadcryface Actually I'll google it myself. Surely someone must have documented it...

Oh, you said “academic” sources. I missed that key word there on my first read-through. I can source my information, but I can’t necessarily do it academically. As a religious person, my sources tend to be religious in nature and not secularly academic.

But that might be part of the problem with the secular approach to reaching out to Christians. Christians don't care what the secular world has to say. They want to know what G-d says. I know it's not what you asked for, but I can try to build a case as to why Jesus didn't fulfil this prophesy using the bible as my primary source.

Would this be okay?

I would appreciate this, very muchBig Grin Thank you for the offer! It has always interested me...
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22-02-2016, 12:46 PM
RE: Scripture Twisting - Zechariah 12
(22-02-2016 11:59 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(22-02-2016 11:09 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I've had a conversation about Isaiah 53 in the past. Let me know if this is what you're looking for. The scriptural comparison here is between the Judaica Press translation and the NASB (Christian) translation.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid875974

I saw that thread, it was good. A little off topic here but I do have a question for you about the break between Chapter 52 and 53. It always struck me as odd when I was younger that chapter 52 ends with a few sentences that seemed tacked on and would be better placed in Chapter 53.

The Suffering Servant
13 See, my servant shall prosper;
he shall be exalted and lifted up,
and shall be very high.
14 Just as there were many who were astonished at him
—so marred was his appearance, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of mortals—
15 so he shall startle many nations;
kings shall shut their mouths because of him;
for that which had not been told them they shall see,
and that which they had not heard they shall contemplate.

After I learned about when the chapter and verses were added to the bible it made so much more sense why the break was made where it was. It only makes sense when you look at it as the nation of Israel as the "HE" and not a man which really changes the perspective on Isaiah 53 had it been included in it. I figured that they were broken apart to make 53 look so much more like it was talking about Jesus. So my question is if I were to go to a synagogue and ask to see Isaiah, how is it written in a traditional Jewish text? I assume the chapters and verses are different than a christian text.

No. Somewhere in the past, we decided that we liked the numbering system that the Christians came up with and so we adopted it. Some of our verse numbers are a little off, though.

The servant songs were originally written as a single, unbroken block of text. No chapter numbers or song divisions existed.

(22-02-2016 11:59 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  And in light of what was brought up earlier, how do you know that the author of Zachariah did write it exactly as you did? We have no originals.

I can't prove to you that the author of Zachariah was Zachariah himself, or if his works have not been tampered with over the years. Maybe the Dead Sea Scrolls have a fragment from Zachariah? I'm not sure.

Having this kind of proof would be critical in validating the authenticity of the bible to a skeptic, and I have no such evidence. -But when I'm having a conversation with a believing Christian, whether they immediately realize it or not, they're coming to the table with perfect trust and confidence that the Jewish people have accurately transmitted the Torah and subsequent books over the course of many generations. They trust us in this sense, and we do use the same version of the Hebrew.
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22-02-2016, 07:44 PM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2016 08:49 PM by Aliza.)
RE: Scripture Twisting - Zechariah 12
(22-02-2016 12:08 PM)carol Wrote:  
(22-02-2016 10:54 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Oh, you said “academic” sources. I missed that key word there on my first read-through. I can source my information, but I can’t necessarily do it academically. As a religious person, my sources tend to be religious in nature and not secularly academic.

But that might be part of the problem with the secular approach to reaching out to Christians. Christians don't care what the secular world has to say. They want to know what G-d says. I know it's not what you asked for, but I can try to build a case as to why Jesus didn't fulfill this prophecy using the bible as my primary source.

Would this be okay?

I would appreciate this, very muchBig Grin Thank you for the offer! It has always interested me...

Here is my stab at addressing the problems within Zacharia using only the English Christian bible as my resource. When a Christian studies the bible, they’re starting with the NT and only using the OT to reinforce what their NT says. So let's start here:

John 19:37)they shall look on him whom they have pierced.

John is describing the crucifixion of Jesus and making the statement that scriptural prophecy regarding the messiah has been fulfilled. So when I go back and refer to the scripture that John has said was just fulfilled, I want to see some strong parallels between the two.

John is saying this: They [the Roman soldiers] shall look on him [Jesus] whom they [the Romans soldiers] have pierced.

With the identity of the “they” and the “him” now known, let’s go back and see if they fit into the prophecy that’s being referenced in Zachariah 12.

KJV Zachariah 12
12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

According to this passage, there will be a siege on Jerusalem. At the time of Jesus’s alleged crucifixion, does the New Testament mention that the inhabitants of Jerusalem were under siege?

12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

In the siege that is to take place in the time immediately preceding the piercing, all of the people of the earth will be gathered against Jerusalem, but their efforts to destroy her will be futile. Did this occur in the NT description?

12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.


It seems that the Tribe of Judah will be leading the battle against the nations. At any time in the NT description of the events surrounding Jesus’s crucifixion, is there any discussion about the Tribe of Judah taking the lead in this epic battle?

12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


Have the nations that rose up against Jerusalem been destroyed? IIRC, wasn’t Jerusalem actually destroyed after the crucifixion?

12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

There are three parties being referenced here: “me,” “him,” and “they.”
Who, according to what you know about the bible, has the ability to pour “grace and supplication” upon the House of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem? I think it’s fair to say that the “me” being referred to here is G-d referring to himself in the first person.

Who is “they?” Immediately preceding the sentence, the party referred to as “they” have been identified as the House of David along with the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
We’re unclear on who the word “him” is referring to. One thing we can surmise is that one individual was pierced by someone else, and one individual was mourned.

If you were to ask a Christian if Jesus is dead, they would say no. –But then why does the prophecy say that the people will mourn him?

12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.


Why are all these people mourning? Is it because Jesus is dead? If the messiah is to die, AND BE DEAD, then how does he fulfill the role of messiah? The messiah’s job is to be successful and liberate the Jewish people. He cannot do that while dead.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and the Roman soldiers shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and the Roman soldiers shall mourn for Jesus, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Where in the NT is the description of the worldwide siege on Jerusalem that is to immediately precede the "piercing" as discussed in the full prophecy of Zacharia 12? Did the Romans mourn for Jesus as the prophecy says they would? Did the Romans (who inhabited Jerusalem) experience grace and supplication prior to murdering Jesus? Did they mourn bitterly for him? Did the Jews even mourn for Jesus at all? According to Christianity, is Jesus even dead to be worthy of mourning?

Has this prophecy really been fulfilled? Did any of the other portions of the prophecy come to pass according to the NT descriptions? Or was it only the part that John conveniently ripped out of context and misquoted from Zachariah.

Edit: Actually, the prophecy continues into chapter 13. That's the part I'm actually sure applies to Jesus. It's the part about idols and false prophets. Big Grin
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22-02-2016, 08:20 PM
RE: Scripture Twisting - Zechariah 12
(22-02-2016 07:44 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-02-2016 12:08 PM)carol Wrote:  I would appreciate this, very muchBig Grin Thank you for the offer! It has always interested me...

Here is my stab at addressing the problems within Zacharia using only the English Christian bible as my resource. When a Christian studies the bible, they’re starting with the NT and only using the OT to reinforce what their NT says. So let's start here:

John 19:37)they shall look on him whom they have pierced.

John is describing the crucifixion of Jesus and making the statement that scriptural prophecy regarding the messiah has been fulfilled. So when I go back and refer to the scripture that John has said was just fulfilled, I want to see some strong parallels between the two.

John is saying this: They [the Roman soldiers] shall look on him [Jesus] whom they [the Romans soldiers] have pierced.

With the identity of the “they” and the “him” now known, let’s go back and see if they fit into the prophecy that’s being referenced in Zachariah 12.

KJV Zachariah 12
12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

According to this passage, there will be a siege on Jerusalem. At the time of Jesus’s alleged crucifixion, does the New Testament mention that the inhabitants of Jerusalem were under siege?

12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

In the siege that is to take place in the time immediately preceding the piercing, all of the people of the earth will be gathered against Jerusalem, but their efforts to destroy her will be futile. Did this occur in the NT description?

12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.


It seems that the Tribe of Judah will be leading the battle against the nations. At any time in the NT description of the events surrounding Jesus’s crucifixion, is there any discussion about the Tribe of Judah taking the lead in this epic battle?

12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


Have the nations that rose up against Jerusalem been destroyed? IIRC, wasn’t Jerusalem actually destroyed after the crucifixion?

12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

There are three parties being referenced here: “me,” “him,” and “they.”
Who, according to what you know about the bible, has the ability to pour “grace and supplication” upon the House of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem? I think it’s fair to say that the “me” being referred to here is G-d referring to himself in the first person.

Who is “they?” Immediately preceding the sentence, the party referred to as “they” have been identified as the House of David along with the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
We’re unclear on who the word “him” is referring to. One thing we can surmise is that one individual was pierced by someone else, and one individual was mourned.

If you were to ask a Christian if Jesus is dead, they would say no. –But then why does the prophecy say that the people will mourn him?

12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.


Why are all these people mourning? Is it because Jesus is dead? If the messiah is to die, AND BE DEAD, then how does he fulfill the role of messiah? The messiah’s job is to be successful and liberate the Jewish people. He cannot do that while dead.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and the Roman soldiers shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and the Roman soldiers shall mourn for Jesus, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Where in the NT is the description of the worldwide siege on Jerusalem that is to immediately precede the "piercing" as discussed in the full prophecy of Zacharia 12? Did the Romans mourn for Jesus as the prophecy says they would? Did the Romans (who inhabited Jerusalem) experience grace and supplication prior to murdering Did they mourn bitterly for him? Did the Jews even mourn for Jesus at all? According to Christianity, is Jesus even dead to be worthy of mourning?

Has this prophecy really been fulfilled? Did any of the other portions of the prophecy come to pass according to the NT descriptions? Or was it only the part that John conveniently ripped out of context and misquoted from Zachariah.

Thank you very much, this is so helpful...I do not believe that Jesus was a real person but this is so useful when discussing the OT and NT with Christians...just to give them something to think about...
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22-02-2016, 10:21 PM
RE: Scripture Twisting - Zechariah 12
(22-02-2016 11:09 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I've had a conversation about Isaiah 53 in the past. Let me know if this is what you're looking for. The scriptural comparison here is between the Judaica Press translation and the NASB (Christian) translation.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid875974
Thanks for that. Very interesting. One thing I noticed that you didn't point out in that post:

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
5 But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

You mentioned "pierced through" instead of "pained", but note also the use of "scourging" instead of "wound". Another tweak to make it seem prophetic.
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25-02-2016, 01:22 PM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2016 01:28 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Scripture Twisting - Zechariah 12
(21-02-2016 07:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  This stunning specimen of scripture twisting was provided to me today in an effort to demonstrate to me how I’ve clearly missed the obvious descriptions of Jesus in my own bible. You can see very clearly that the KJV version (especially when taken out of context from the surrounding text) renders a translation that deliberately draws a false parallel to the Christian story of Jesus. If you are a Christian, then how do you accept this level of inaccuracy in the translation of your bible?

KJV
Zachariah 12:10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Sounds like it's referring to Jesus, right? It's not. Dodgy Below is the translation rendered directly from the original Hebrew. This passage is about the Jewish people expressing their sorrow over the those who, in the days immediately preceding the messianic era, will die when the enemies of the Jews come up against Jerusalem. This is not about Jesus at all.

JPS
Zachariah 12:10But I will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born.


Hebrew Text in case you're curious:

יוְשָׁפַכְתִּי עַל בֵּית דָּוִיד וְעַל | יוֹשֵׁב יְרוּשָׁלַםִ רוּחַ חֵן וְתַחֲנוּנִים וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי אֵת אֲשֶׁר דָּקָרוּ וְסָפְדוּ עָלָיו כְּמִסְפֵּד עַל הַיָּחִיד וְהָמֵר עָלָיו כְּהָמֵר עַל הַבְּכוֹר:

יאבַּיּוֹם הַהוּא יִגְדַּל הַמִּסְפֵּד בִּירוּשָׁלִַם כְּמִסְפַּד הֲדַדְרִמּוֹן בְּבִקְעַת מְגִדּוֹן:

A lot of the xtian versions of things and even the stories they twist were just allegorical writings ...analogies...designed to help communicate whatever message the authors intended. Take hell for example, I have a lengthy breakdown of that somewhere, but it comes down to the whole fiery pit of hell, damnation and eternal agony by burning is yup....just another allegorical creation originally intended to paint the picture of life without god is life without goodness, and life without goodness is life without living, which is eternal death. Since the society at the time feared fire above all else, it translated itself into that form overtime, until dipshit literalists who were writing the 47th+ version of stories took that to mean the soul was literally going to be in a fiery pit of hell for eternity.....

From one of my Christian university textbooks...

Source is Reason, Faith and Tradition by Martin C. Albl, Chapter 7 page 188 – describing hell.

"We begin with a reminder of limitations of our language. Since hell, according to Christian doctrine, is a supernatural reality, it can only be described in analogies. Holy Scripture teaches us the essence of hell in images. When it speaks of the fire of hell, it is not to be understood in a grossly realistic sense. The images of fire and pain were ways of expressing the essential Christian understanding of hell – that it is a separation from God. We may define heaven as simply being with God, and hell, in contrast, is simply being without God. It is thus an existence without goodness and without meaning."

the twisting of scripture is part and parcel of xtian belief and the sales tactic method used to teach the myth to others...it is a survival method to overcome scripture exegesis and the inevitable questioning that creates

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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