Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
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18-07-2017, 04:21 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(18-07-2017 04:08 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-07-2017 03:29 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  Your 3x the pay of the lowest paid employee idea is ridiculous.

I think ImNotFred was just making a point, not suggesting a specific standard. - Ratio between CEOs and average workers in world in 2014, by country But I'm not Fred. Smile

You can also compare this with CEO Vs average worker pay in THIS country over the past 100 years, you'd see something pretty remarkable. Something along the same lines as what your link points out.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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18-07-2017, 04:26 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(18-07-2017 11:26 AM)ImFred Wrote:  If you can't afford to pay people minimum wage then do the work yourself. Why should anybody work for less than they can live on?

I think the law should be no one is allowed to make more than three times what the lowest paid employee makes at any business. If the cashiers at Walmart make $8 an hour the CEO's should be held at $24. Surely they can live on THREE TIMES as much as they expect their employees to live on!

Yes, let’s make that into a law! We need to de-incentivize every entrepreneur from ever starting a company. Greedy bastards come up with a good idea, risk their own capital, work their asses off, turn it into a profitable business then employ others for the going rate in the marketplace...unacceptable! Fuck em! Who do they think they are?

Forget making it a law, we in America should make it an Amendment to the Constitution!

Dodgy

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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18-07-2017, 04:30 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(18-07-2017 04:08 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-07-2017 03:29 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  Your 3x the pay of the lowest paid employee idea is ridiculous.

I think ImNotFred was just making a point, not suggesting a specific standard. - Ratio between CEOs and average workers in world in 2014, by country But I'm not Fred. Smile

I'm making a point and I'm suggesting a standard. I think it's funny that the first reply from an entrepreneur doesn't even seem to register the thought that they may actually have to accept less. I can't pay a janitor 1/3 what I make, I'd lose money. Lol. No shit. The math pans out no matter how you want to slice it. You either believe in gigantic living standard disparities or you don't. I don't.
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18-07-2017, 04:32 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(18-07-2017 04:26 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(18-07-2017 11:26 AM)ImFred Wrote:  If you can't afford to pay people minimum wage then do the work yourself. Why should anybody work for less than they can live on?

I think the law should be no one is allowed to make more than three times what the lowest paid employee makes at any business. If the cashiers at Walmart make $8 an hour the CEO's should be held at $24. Surely they can live on THREE TIMES as much as they expect their employees to live on!

Yes, let’s make that into a law! We need to de-incentivize every entrepreneur from ever starting a company. Greedy bastards come up with a good idea, risk their own capital, work their asses off, turn it into a profitable business then employ others for the going rate in the marketplace...unacceptable! Fuck em! Who do they think they are?

Forget making it a law, we in America should make it an Amendment to the Constitution!

Dodgy

If making three times as much as another isn't enough of an incentive then fuck his business.
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18-07-2017, 04:33 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(18-07-2017 04:26 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(18-07-2017 11:26 AM)ImFred Wrote:  If you can't afford to pay people minimum wage then do the work yourself. Why should anybody work for less than they can live on?

I think the law should be no one is allowed to make more than three times what the lowest paid employee makes at any business. If the cashiers at Walmart make $8 an hour the CEO's should be held at $24. Surely they can live on THREE TIMES as much as they expect their employees to live on!

Yes, let’s make that into a law! We need to de-incentivize every entrepreneur from ever starting a company. Greedy bastards come up with a good idea, risk their own capital, work their asses off, turn it into a profitable business then employ others for the going rate in the marketplace...unacceptable! Fuck em! Who do they think they are?

Forget making it a law, we in America should make it an Amendment to the Constitution!

Dodgy

I don't know any Entrepreneur that is successful that makes a habit of risking their own capital..... I mean the goal is to try and get others to pay for it. Government contracts are often a very lucrative option as you don't have to pay them back.

Either way I don't think anyone is suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed or able to turn a profit, only that if the system gets too imbalanced it hurts everyone, even those at the top. Eventually. It's not sustainable when the ratio is 374:1 in favor of a CEO when every member of that company put in close to or just as much work as the guy at the top. Hell if Trump represents any metric we're seeing right now a CEO that does less than any of their employees. I mean there is one promise Trump kept, to run the white house like a business. And it looks just like I'd expect any number of shitatsitcally poorly run businesses I've worked for in the past, yet somehow the CEO's above me deserved millions of dollars where I doing all the fucking work to make the product or move the product deserved less than minimum wage (cause lets be honest if they could they'd all work us for 1 penny a month)

At least all I'm really advocating is some rational thought put in, some balance, some accountability, and if that means enforcing it with some reasonable restrictions well the folks at the top have consistently proven throughout history they think of us as less valuable than cattle. And will treat us worse than slaves given the chance. So why shouldn't we find ways to at least impose a basic reasonable standard of living for ourselves. At the end of the day, they'll still be rich, so fucking rich they couldn't possibly spend it all if they tried.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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18-07-2017, 04:42 PM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2017 04:53 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
How to make the myth of the meritocracy in America real (at least one way that's reasonably intellectually honest I think and takes into account the world is kinda a messed up place with a lot of complexity)

Step 1. Eliminate inherited wealth. You get what you earned, not what your parents earned.
Step 2. A healthy society is a productive society. AKA if someone is sick make them healthy so they can get back to work. No burdens of debt allowed (universal healthcare)
Step 3. An educated workforce is a productive workforce capable of achieving higher goals (universal education system)
Step 4. A basic standard of living is required for anyone to reach their full potential (guaranteed minimum quality of life, nothing fancy just enough)
Step 5. Establish a one way separation between business and state. The government exists to represent the people, not business.

Step 6. Everyone is encouraged to achieve all they can so long as it neither undermines or interferes with steps 1-5

This system means everyone starts out more or less in the same place from a societal standpoint. Meaning they all have the potential to earn as much as their Intellect and effort will allow without hindrance of the wealthy who do in fact intentionally strive to protect their position by holding others down. It's just an idea, I don't know if it's a good idea. But it's an idea I've been thinking for a while.

Edit^ With step 4 I'm thinking about some stuff I learned in college about how like.... if you are lacking basic human needs you can never come close to fulfilling your potential (aka if you're starving you can't hit the next level of um... development) idk.... I forget some of the details and I can't remember the psychologist that developed this thing, but I remember there being a triangle of well being with the base being food/shelter and the various requirements needed at each level. Kinda like a food pyramid for your mental health and well being and success. If anyone has any clue what I'm talking about linking some source material would be great as I don't have my old college book I pulled the idea from anymore.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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18-07-2017, 04:44 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
Three is where I would cut it. But if it were cut to 100 times that would be an improvement. That means the lowest worker would have to work 100 years to earn what the richest make in one. And that would still be radically better than what we have now. We have situations now where one man would have to work more than a thousand years to equal what another makes in one. Think how fucking insane that is.
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18-07-2017, 04:56 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(18-07-2017 04:30 PM)ImFred Wrote:  You either believe in gigantic living standard disparities or you don't. I don't.

I don't either. It doesn't make for a healthy, robust and resilient society. The worst part about it in my eyes is that those who are doing the shitting don't realize that they are not only hurting themselves more than those they are shitting on, they are damaging the reputation of an entire species. I used to be a radical, now I am egalitarian with full appreciation of the socio-politco-economic implications of that position, both costs and benefits. I feel sorry for those who aren't. I don't think they recognize the seriousness of our predicament.

Watch out for that tear gas, man...




#sigh
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18-07-2017, 04:59 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(18-07-2017 04:21 PM)JesseB Wrote:  You can also compare this with CEO Vs average worker pay in THIS country over the past 100 years, you'd see something pretty remarkable. Something along the same lines as what your link points out.

It had to be worse with the carbetbaggers wasn't it? I mean that's what it seemed like on Deadwood anyway.

#sigh
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18-07-2017, 05:00 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(18-07-2017 04:56 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-07-2017 04:30 PM)ImFred Wrote:  You either believe in gigantic living standard disparities or you don't. I don't.

I don't either. It doesn't make for a healthy, robust and resilient society. The worst part about it in my eyes is that those who are doing the shitting don't realize that they are not only hurting themselves more than those they are shitting on, they are damaging the reputation of an entire species. I used to be a radical, now I am egalitarian with full appreciation of the socio-politco-economic implications of that position, both costs and benefits. I feel sorry for those who aren't. I don't think they recognize the seriousness of our predicament.

Watch out for that tear gas, man...




I don't think I consider myself a radical. Nor am I likely to encounter tear gas in my lifetime. If it gets to a point I'm pushed so far to action then what I need to watch out for are bullets.

I fully appreciate our situation. That's why I keep reminding people of the french revolution. It's not that I want that, it's simply that that is the inevitable outcome when the wealthy are allowed to abuse everyone else for too long. I would like to think my position is one of balance that should be reasonable for all involved if they would simply look at the numbers, the data the statistics and history and stopped absorbing themselves in smelling their own farts.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
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