Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
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17-07-2017, 12:39 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 12:19 PM)TheBear Wrote:  I honestly don't know the answer to this. Maybe retail? How does a teenager start to build a good work ethic, be a team player, and learn to interact with the public on a business level if these basic, entry level jobs are gone?

The welfare state. IMO that's the answer. Recognising that running the world for the benefit of the few is not the purpose of government, the purpose of government it running the world / country for the benefit of *all*. And if automation and current laws mean that some small fraction of the country are able to claim everything (or very nearly) everything for themselves, then those laws need to change.

I'm all for automation. Why should humans, who are so brilliant and wonderful, have to do stupid boring jobs? Let our robot slaves do them! But don't take the job away from a human and leave them to starve. Give that human a living. Let them have leisure. Let them innovate and live lives that will be more fulfilled. If we can find the trick to doing this, I predict that society will become even more productive, and that we may finally be able to reach for the stars.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-07-2017, 12:52 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
https://www.versobooks.com/books/2315-in...the-future
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17-07-2017, 12:57 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 12:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 12:19 PM)TheBear Wrote:  I honestly don't know the answer to this. Maybe retail? How does a teenager start to build a good work ethic, be a team player, and learn to interact with the public on a business level if these basic, entry level jobs are gone?

The welfare state. IMO that's the answer. Recognising that running the world for the benefit of the few is not the purpose of government, the purpose of government it running the world / country for the benefit of *all*. And if automation and current laws mean that some small fraction of the country are able to claim everything (or very nearly) everything for themselves, then those laws need to change.

I'm all for automation. Why should humans, who are so brilliant and wonderful, have to do stupid boring jobs? Let our robot slaves do them! But don't take the job away from a human and leave them to starve. Give that human a living. Let them have leisure. Let them innovate and live lives that will be more fulfilled. If we can find the trick to doing this, I predict that society will become even more productive, and that we may finally be able to reach for the stars.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment.
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17-07-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 12:57 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 12:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  The welfare state. IMO that's the answer. Recognising that running the world for the benefit of the few is not the purpose of government, the purpose of government it running the world / country for the benefit of *all*. And if automation and current laws mean that some small fraction of the country are able to claim everything (or very nearly) everything for themselves, then those laws need to change.

I'm all for automation. Why should humans, who are so brilliant and wonderful, have to do stupid boring jobs? Let our robot slaves do them! But don't take the job away from a human and leave them to starve. Give that human a living. Let them have leisure. Let them innovate and live lives that will be more fulfilled. If we can find the trick to doing this, I predict that society will become even more productive, and that we may finally be able to reach for the stars.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment.

... Reasons?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-07-2017, 01:00 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 12:52 PM)ImFred Wrote:  https://www.versobooks.com/books/2315-in...the-future

Very interesting Smile I'll definitely give it a read.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-07-2017, 01:05 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 12:59 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 12:57 PM)TheBear Wrote:  I strongly disagree with this sentiment.

... Reasons?

Plenty, some of which I've already outlined. I'll get into more details when I have some time. For now, I'll just say that total dependence on government is a form of slavery.
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17-07-2017, 01:08 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 12:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  The welfare state. IMO that's the answer. Recognising that running the world for the benefit of the few is not the purpose of government, the purpose of government it running the world / country for the benefit of *all*. And if automation and current laws mean that some small fraction of the country are able to claim everything (or very nearly) everything for themselves, then those laws need to change.

There are many people who would disagree with such statement. Belief in self evident truth of neoliberal economic policy is hard to dispel. It took falling of Soviet Union for communist dream to die (not entirely) so I suppose another event on that scale must happen for world to move on.

Quote:I'm all for automation. Why should humans, who are so brilliant and wonderful, have to do stupid boring jobs? Let our robot slaves do them! But don't take the job away from a human and leave them to starve. Give that human a living. Let them have leisure. Let them innovate and live lives that will be more fulfilled.

Finally communism will prevail and Marx dream of mankind freed from tyranny of alienating labor will become reality.

Quote:If we can find the trick to doing this, I predict that society will become even more productive, and that we may finally be able to reach for the stars.

That's pretty big if. Sadly.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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17-07-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 12:57 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 12:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  The welfare state. IMO that's the answer. Recognising that running the world for the benefit of the few is not the purpose of government, the purpose of government it running the world / country for the benefit of *all*. And if automation and current laws mean that some small fraction of the country are able to claim everything (or very nearly) everything for themselves, then those laws need to change.

I'm all for automation. Why should humans, who are so brilliant and wonderful, have to do stupid boring jobs? Let our robot slaves do them! But don't take the job away from a human and leave them to starve. Give that human a living. Let them have leisure. Let them innovate and live lives that will be more fulfilled. If we can find the trick to doing this, I predict that society will become even more productive, and that we may finally be able to reach for the stars.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment.

Why not? Wouldn't it be nice to follow your passion without having to worry about feeding your family or yourself?

How many people do you know that just languish in a job they hate, working for a company that doesn't give two shits about them or even their customers?

What if you really could take the time to develope a skill doing something that truly made you happy and brought joy to others?

There would still be farmers, bakers and chefs/cooks, the difference is that people doing those jobs would actually want to do them.

It would also open the door also for more people with special needs to find employment in areas where automation isn't always practical (maybe grocery stores).

At first there would problems, people might say fuck it, "I'm going the beach." But I don't think it would last very long, most people want to be productive and humans can't help but to look for something else.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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17-07-2017, 01:18 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 01:05 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 12:59 PM)morondog Wrote:  ... Reasons?

Plenty, some of which I've already outlined. I'll get into more details when I have some time. For now, I'll just say that total dependence on government is a form of slavery.

Not being forced to work sounds a lot less like slavery than being forced to work. Being totally dependent on government is a byproduct of living in any sort of monetary system.
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17-07-2017, 01:21 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2017 01:31 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 06:00 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I'll get flamed for this one - but I'll have more fun than Lord Dark Helmet pulling off his spectacular election prediction, in a few years.

Seattle just decided to become the next Detroit.

They enacted their boneheaded $15 an hour minimum wage law (read business tax), and now an income tax on higher wage earners. (If minimum wage really worked and didn't spur inflation, how come they have to keep upping it ?- coincidentally around election time).

I guess they want to be able to pay all the welfare, and generous city pensions...


That'll be fine - till the big businesses pull out - markets change and the big sources of income dry up and blow away.....

Then the city will cut back on services, the streetlight will go dark, crime will go up - and those that can afford to - will flee for greener pastures.

Just like Detroit....

I guess if you've got a political bent - you can apply as Emergency Manager.... They'll be needing one in the future....

......

Coincidentally - my sister just left and moved back to Michigan....

She wanted to beat the traffic.

Minimal wage jobs in urban area are overwhelmingly in the service industry like store clercs, low grade office jobs like data entry, fast food, etc.

These jobs, unlike manufacturing jobs for example, aren't very mobile jobs and aren't the corner stone of an urban zone economy. Thus, they aren't very mobile and even if businesses are made less profitable by an increase in wage, they can't delocalise their installation to maintain their profit margin. They can increase the cost of their goods, but fast food and retail stores are in a massively competitive environment so the price can't climb up much. Basically, they have very little counter power and will suffer some lost that they can make up by investing outside of the zone or by more clever marketing. Thus, the chance of seeing an economy crumble because wage go up is largely unfounded at this level.

You will notice that Vancouver, barely a few hundred miles North from Seattle, has a minimum wage of almost $11 and a maximum tax bracket of around 50% of your gross income which touches all person who win more than $142 000 per year. This city has similar standards of living than Seattle, a similar industry and in country that is about as prosperous as the USA. In other words, yes high taxation can work if it's implemented correctly and used with some intelligence.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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