Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
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17-07-2017, 01:23 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 01:08 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 12:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  The welfare state. IMO that's the answer. Recognising that running the world for the benefit of the few is not the purpose of government, the purpose of government it running the world / country for the benefit of *all*. And if automation and current laws mean that some small fraction of the country are able to claim everything (or very nearly) everything for themselves, then those laws need to change.

There are many people who would disagree with such statement. Belief in self evident truth of neoliberal economic policy is hard to dispel. It took falling of Soviet Union for communist dream to die (not entirely) so I suppose another event on that scale must happen for world to move on.

I think such an event will happen shortly, sadly Undecided My prediction for what will happen sharply differs from my desire for what *should* happen. I think that far from making the adjustments that could forestall some of the foreseeable disasters (like climate change), society will continue to bicker and fight, the wealthy will continue to subvert any attempts to engineer a better future for all in favour of their short-sighted interests, until it just becomes a mad scramble to *survive*, never mind live well. Ironically enough, we might fuck ourselves well and truly economically before ever climate change administers the coup de grace.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-07-2017, 01:29 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2017 01:34 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 12:19 PM)TheBear Wrote:  I honestly don't know the answer to this. Maybe retail? How does a teenager start to build a good work ethic, be a team player, and learn to interact with the public on a business level if these basic, entry level jobs are gone?

It might sound stupid, but I believe good work ethic, teamwork and learn how to interact with the public in a work setting is something that schools can and should do. Mandatory community work is a cornerstone of many education program. I think community work, because it's varied and isn't paid, does a much better job than a underpaid, repetitive and boring job at teaching teenagers and young adults about work ethic, teamwork.

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17-07-2017, 01:29 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 01:18 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 01:05 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Plenty, some of which I've already outlined. I'll get into more details when I have some time. For now, I'll just say that total dependence on government is a form of slavery.

Not being forced to work sounds a lot less like slavery than being forced to work. Being totally dependent on government is a byproduct of living in any sort of monetary system.

Seconded. If society collapses we're all fucked anyway, so in the future, how am I who live in a welfare state more dependent on government than you, TheBear, who do not? I am able to... not die if I don't have enough money to go to the doctor. I am able to... not starve if I don't have a job. I am able to... spend my time doing stuff that I enjoy, thanks to the benefits of automation. Tell me... exactly *how* is your life better than mine? You think you'd last any longer than me if someone took away all the benefits you get from your government? You have some vague undefined "freedom" that I apparently do not?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-07-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 01:23 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 01:08 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  There are many people who would disagree with such statement. Belief in self evident truth of neoliberal economic policy is hard to dispel. It took falling of Soviet Union for communist dream to die (not entirely) so I suppose another event on that scale must happen for world to move on.

I think such an event will happen shortly, sadly Undecided My prediction for what will happen sharply differs from my desire for what *should* happen. I think that far from making the adjustments that could forestall some of the foreseeable disasters (like climate change), society will continue to bicker and fight, the wealthy will continue to subvert any attempts to engineer a better future for all in favour of their short-sighted interests, until it just becomes a mad scramble to *survive*, never mind live well. Ironically enough, we might fuck ourselves well and truly economically before ever climate change administers the coup de grace.

I make no specific predictions, I'm only afraid of Poland becoming unlivable if things will still go like PiS want. That's different matter though.

As for society or maybe humanity in general I don't care that much - if things go to shit - as in scrambling for survive - then I had time enough to enjoy life. But I don't truly expect such catastrophe.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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17-07-2017, 01:38 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 01:33 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I don't truly expect such catastrophe.

I think if there isn't one, it'll be because some seriously brilliant people averted the current course of history. As much as that makes me sound like a doomsday prepper Tongue But climate change is no joke, and neither is the problem of overpopulation, to say nothing of the problem under discussion, which is automation taking people's jobs.

I do believe that technology will be a key component of any strategy to address any of these problems, and hopefully not in a nuclear bomb technology sense.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-07-2017, 01:39 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 01:38 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 01:33 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I don't truly expect such catastrophe.

I think if there isn't one, it'll be because some seriously brilliant people averted the current course of history. As much as that makes me sound like a doomsday prepper Tongue But climate change is no joke, and neither is the problem of overpopulation, to say nothing of the problem under discussion, which is automation taking people's jobs.

I do believe that technology will be a key component of any strategy to address any of these problems, and hopefully not in a nuclear bomb technology sense.

We will see I guess. Or not.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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17-07-2017, 01:48 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 01:29 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 12:19 PM)TheBear Wrote:  I honestly don't know the answer to this. Maybe retail? How does a teenager start to build a good work ethic, be a team player, and learn to interact with the public on a business level if these basic, entry level jobs are gone?

It might sound stupid, but I believe good work ethic, teamwork and learn how to interact with the public in a work setting is something that schools can and should do. Mandatory community work is a cornerstone of many education program. I think community work, because it's varied and isn't paid, does a much better job than a underpaid, repetitive and boring job at teaching teenagers and young adults about work ethic, teamwork.

I've been a public school teacher for a decade. It's depressing to admit this but I can't "teach" those skills. Kids that come to me with those skills won't be deterred. But the kids with no sense of cooperation remain very stubbornly non-cooperative. I'm a mediocre teacher. Not terrible, just mediocre. Changing a student's character is a tall order even for a great teacher.
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17-07-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 01:48 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I've been a public school teacher for a decade. It's depressing to admit this but I can't "teach" those skills. Kids that come to me with those skills won't be deterred. But the kids with no sense of cooperation remain very stubbornly non-cooperative. I'm a mediocre teacher. Not terrible, just mediocre. Changing a student's character is a tall order even for a great teacher.

That's why mandatory community work imbeded within school programs like its the case for the IB program (I don't know if American schools participate to this program) have proven to be more efficient than more traditional approach to teaching work related skills and values. The community work isn't managed by teachers or done during school hours but outside of it with logistical support and minimal supervision from the school administration. The organism are in charge of showing those teens what to do and how to do it and evaluate them. It's unrealistic to ask a single teacher (or a handful of them) to teach such values in consistent and efficient fashion to a wide group of students, but by focusing on a community approach to work and study in addition to traditional schooling, it can be more efficient. Sure, it there will always be failures. Some people are unwilling to better themselves, but I do think this is better than counting on low level entry jobs in businesses with poor employer/employee relationship to teach those lessons to the same teenagers and young adults.

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17-07-2017, 02:23 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
In America, IB very aggressively funnels money away from low income students into the hands of the upper middle class. Schools pay tens of thousands of dollars per year to call themselves IB yet IB provides nothing but a philosophic framework. No texts, no software, no computers, no transportation- just expensive out of town workshops for teachers that offer no practical support. Believe me, I know.
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17-07-2017, 02:28 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
Is teamwork really such a mile stone?

Damn, I slid right through life without any inclination to participate in any team. Except as "coach".

I am lousy at teamwork (never seen one that didn't have someone grinding my nerves and sucking the team's blood) and I am impossible at subordination.

Oddly, I have always been good at putting teams together. Maybe I know to avoid the nerve grinders and blood suckers. Consider

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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