Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
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17-07-2017, 04:42 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 04:00 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 03:33 PM)Dom Wrote:  ... which means you are working a team without being a Teamworker.

Fixed. Tongue

I guess you could argue that the farmer works the farm. I'd argue that the farm works the farmer.

Symbiosis, baby!

Big Grin

Yes, symbiosis. Doesn't change my view.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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17-07-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 03:20 PM)RogueWarrior Wrote:  As usual, the people without any empathy are aghast.

Because the "feel-good", knee-jerk reaction approach, without any effort in number-crunching, critical analyses or unintended consequences, beats all. Thumbsup






If it's popular, it must be good, right? Drinking Beverage
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17-07-2017, 05:29 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 05:04 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 03:20 PM)RogueWarrior Wrote:  As usual, the people without any empathy are aghast.

Because the "feel-good", knee-jerk reaction approach, without any effort in number-crunching, critical analyses or unintended consequences, beats all. Thumbsup






If it's popular, it must be good, right? Drinking Beverage

I'm a little baffled by how they managed to film that.
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17-07-2017, 05:33 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 05:29 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I'm a little baffled by how they managed to film that.



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17-07-2017, 05:50 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
Wow. I mean I figured someone had to be walking and running (!) backwards but I ruled it out because... how could you avoid crashing or tripping? Lord knows I couldn't do it. That's impressive!
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17-07-2017, 06:19 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 01:17 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 12:57 PM)TheBear Wrote:  I strongly disagree with this sentiment.

Why not? Wouldn't it be nice to follow your passion without having to worry about feeding your family or yourself?

How many people do you know that just languish in a job they hate, working for a company that doesn't give two shits about them or even their customers?

What if you really could take the time to develope a skill doing something that truly made you happy and brought joy to others?

There would still be farmers, bakers and chefs/cooks, the difference is that people doing those jobs would actually want to do them.

It would also open the door also for more people with special needs to find employment in areas where automation isn't always practical (maybe grocery stores).

At first there would problems, people might say fuck it, "I'm going the beach." But I don't think it would last very long, most people want to be productive and humans can't help but to look for something else.

I think I agree with theBear in that dependence can be a form of slavery.

But why so many of us I think (my opinion and thought might not be right) are totally in favor of this is.... how do I put it.... I think of Star Trek the next Generation when people from the past came and saw how people in the future lived. Their shock that money didn't even exist. Everyone's needs were already met so the people were then free to pursue their dreams without limitations, to work towards bettering themselves and the whole of humanity without the weight of struggles that currently hold so many of us down.

And while total dependence on a government could and can be a form of slavery.... Total dependence on money IS slavery already.....

(aka wage slavery... this mostly relates to poor fucks like me who's only options are jobs that can't even pay for us to live on, but my point remains, even people not in such a dire situation are slaves to money and through money their employers it's not a superior system to the proposed alternative, and the proposed alternative is NOT by necessity a superior system either. In the end all options have paths for enslavement to the government or the rich and it's up to us to find a path that prevents that.... if we can.)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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17-07-2017, 06:26 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 05:04 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 03:20 PM)RogueWarrior Wrote:  As usual, the people without any empathy are aghast.

Because the "feel-good", knee-jerk reaction approach, without any effort in number-crunching, critical analyses or unintended consequences, beats all. Thumbsup






If it's popular, it must be good, right? Drinking Beverage

>.> I mean... I still like the original....




DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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17-07-2017, 10:10 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 03:13 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 03:03 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  You still have a supply/demand situation to contend with. Microeconomics do not go out the window simply because we want to ensure people can have raises to take care of families. When the price of labor goes up, you will see a combination of the following: 1) fewer workers who get more hours, 2) a more cost effective substitute for higher priced labor (automation), and/or 3) the business goes belly up (small businesses predominantly). The problem with minimum wage jobs are that too many people are working them to survive and not for the stepping stone that many of them were supposed to be. And if you really want to know the real reason why the Dems/Progs want higher minimum wage rates think of how union contracts are set up wrt to compensation. THAT is why people are pushing hard for minimum wage jobs. It's to keep political donations flowing into the coffers of a certain political party.

How then do you explain, well basically all of Western Europe. European minimum wage is very high and we see none of those issues. Automation is not tied to work wages so keeping wages at below poverty levels do not hold that off. Businesses do business in areas where people are buying their product and the people most likely to buy are lower and middle class. As to the Dems want Higher pay for political donations, well that is laughable as most Dems are nowhere near progressive and even in party there is no consensus on this being a major issue.

The goal of any business - large or small - is to maximize profit. While I understand that in the real world, there will be factors outside the realm of microeconomics where all participants are supposed to behave as pure rational actors, there is a limit for how much a business will absorb until it finds alternative methods to reduce costs. I'm all for good wages for people; however, there has to be a reasonable level of value exchanged between employer and employee. Simply raising wages thru legislation will simply make low/non-skilled labor more expensive. In addition to that, collective bargaining units normally have contracts that are tied to the minimum wage - which normally means that when it rises, union wages need to rise to match the increase. That increases the power of the labor unions which in turn becomes the quid pro quo that I referred to earlier where union interests will provide heavy donations in exchange for favorable legislation.

I could very well be living in a bubble, but from what I see IRL more jobs pay levels above the minimum wage than the low skill/no skill jobs that would be paying minimum wage rates. As I mentioned above, companies are more than happy to pay wages well above minimum wage when the jobs require tangible skills. Electricians, plumbers, engineers, many factory jobs, doctors, etc who have skills to bring to the table are compensated well for those skills based on what I observe in real life. Hiking the minimum wage is nothing but a band aid for low/no skilled labor. The real solutions are to improve the education of the work force and to enact policies to encourage the creation of good paying jobs in the cities.
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17-07-2017, 10:20 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 03:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 03:03 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  You still have a supply/demand situation to contend with. Microeconomics do not go out the window simply because we want to ensure people can have raises to take care of families. When the price of labor goes up, you will see a combination of the following: 1) fewer workers who get more hours, 2) a more cost effective substitute for higher priced labor (automation), and/or 3) the business goes belly up (small businesses predominantly). The problem with minimum wage jobs are that too many people are working them to survive and not for the stepping stone that many of them were supposed to be. And if you really want to know the real reason why the Dems/Progs want higher minimum wage rates think of how union contracts are set up wrt to compensation. THAT is why people are pushing hard for minimum wage jobs. It's to keep political donations flowing into the coffers of a certain political party.

Mmmm. So what's the alternative? Work people to death for jobs that are below a livable wage?

There's no easy alternative. Minimum wage laws ultimately do nothing for the most poor and vulnerable who have no choice but to work as unskilled laborers. It's a temporary band aid with minimal upside and significant downside risk for the poorest people. What most likely happens will be fewer unskilled jobs available in the near future. MNC's will not be hurt much by higher min wage rates; however, small businesses will be harmed, and you're more likely to see more closures of these businesses.

This is what I think will happen based on my knowledge of economics. The key will be what is the biggest lever. Will the velocity of money win out - assuming the min wage earners are spending virtually all their money to live (is this really helpful in the long run?) or will the MR = MC profit maximization goal for companies that will adjust accordingly to higher costs?

We'll find out. I hope you are right. I'm skeptical.
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17-07-2017, 10:33 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
Hey if it wasn't for minimum wage half my raises wouldn't exist (raises from the jobs I worked that paid minimum wage, this would include Game Crazy, Staples, hmm... other service jobs I have done at various points in my life for some reason I'm blanking on the others)

Companies that pay minimum wage at most offer raises on an annual basis between 0.05 and 0.25.... yea..... you heard that right....

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
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