Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
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17-07-2017, 10:39 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 10:10 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 03:13 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  How then do you explain, well basically all of Western Europe. European minimum wage is very high and we see none of those issues. Automation is not tied to work wages so keeping wages at below poverty levels do not hold that off. Businesses do business in areas where people are buying their product and the people most likely to buy are lower and middle class. As to the Dems want Higher pay for political donations, well that is laughable as most Dems are nowhere near progressive and even in party there is no consensus on this being a major issue.

The goal of any business - large or small - is to maximize profit. While I understand that in the real world, there will be factors outside the realm of microeconomics where all participants are supposed to behave as pure rational actors, there is a limit for how much a business will absorb until it finds alternative methods to reduce costs. I'm all for good wages for people; however, there has to be a reasonable level of value exchanged between employer and employee. Simply raising wages thru legislation will simply make low/non-skilled labor more expensive. In addition to that, collective bargaining units normally have contracts that are tied to the minimum wage - which normally means that when it rises, union wages need to rise to match the increase. That increases the power of the labor unions which in turn becomes the quid pro quo that I referred to earlier where union interests will provide heavy donations in exchange for favorable legislation.

I could very well be living in a bubble, but from what I see IRL more jobs pay levels above the minimum wage than the low skill/no skill jobs that would be paying minimum wage rates. As I mentioned above, companies are more than happy to pay wages well above minimum wage when the jobs require tangible skills. Electricians, plumbers, engineers, many factory jobs, doctors, etc who have skills to bring to the table are compensated well for those skills based on what I observe in real life. Hiking the minimum wage is nothing but a band aid for low/no skilled labor. The real solutions are to improve the education of the work force and to enact policies to encourage the creation of good paying jobs in the cities.

This is an inherently broken system not because of the governments attempt to fix the problem, but because businesses large and small realized that they can bring back slavery in the form of wage slavery. Effectively under paying employee's intentionally so they can absorb the extra benefits from the employee's work. The fucking CEO doesn't deserve 300% more than the average employee because he's somehow more important or more skilled than the others. It's a team fucking effort to bring products goods and services to market, he deserves 300% more because he can get away with easily fucking over everyone below him and no one will stop him. Especially when every other fucking company is doing the same damn thing. The rich, and upper class only get there by stealing from the poor. So fuck them.

Why do you think the poor have an us vs them view of this. It's because that's exactly what's fucking going on. Fuck them I for one remember the french revolution. It'll happen again, unlike them I'm not so stupid as to think this unsustainable broken path can last forever.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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17-07-2017, 10:55 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 10:39 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 10:10 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  The goal of any business - large or small - is to maximize profit. While I understand that in the real world, there will be factors outside the realm of microeconomics where all participants are supposed to behave as pure rational actors, there is a limit for how much a business will absorb until it finds alternative methods to reduce costs. I'm all for good wages for people; however, there has to be a reasonable level of value exchanged between employer and employee. Simply raising wages thru legislation will simply make low/non-skilled labor more expensive. In addition to that, collective bargaining units normally have contracts that are tied to the minimum wage - which normally means that when it rises, union wages need to rise to match the increase. That increases the power of the labor unions which in turn becomes the quid pro quo that I referred to earlier where union interests will provide heavy donations in exchange for favorable legislation.

I could very well be living in a bubble, but from what I see IRL more jobs pay levels above the minimum wage than the low skill/no skill jobs that would be paying minimum wage rates. As I mentioned above, companies are more than happy to pay wages well above minimum wage when the jobs require tangible skills. Electricians, plumbers, engineers, many factory jobs, doctors, etc who have skills to bring to the table are compensated well for those skills based on what I observe in real life. Hiking the minimum wage is nothing but a band aid for low/no skilled labor. The real solutions are to improve the education of the work force and to enact policies to encourage the creation of good paying jobs in the cities.

This is an inherently broken system not because of the governments attempt to fix the problem, but because businesses large and small realized that they can bring back slavery in the form of wage slavery. Effectively under paying employee's intentionally so they can absorb the extra benefits from the employee's work. The fucking CEO doesn't deserve 300% more than the average employee because he's somehow more important or more skilled than the others. It's a team fucking effort to bring products goods and services to market, he deserves 300% more because he can get away with easily fucking over everyone below him and no one will stop him. Especially when every other fucking company is doing the same damn thing. The rich, and upper class only get there by stealing from the poor. So fuck them.

Why do you think the poor have an us vs them view of this. It's because that's exactly what's fucking going on. Fuck them I for one remember the french revolution. It'll happen again, unlike them I'm not so stupid as to think this unsustainable broken path can last forever.

CEO pay is an entirely different matter than the topic of this thread, and yes I think they are overpaid. The problem we face is greater than the "greedy bastards" headquartered in NYC - for example. We live in an international economy with connections throughout. We are members of the WTO with the stated goal to maximize free trade. That means U.S. workers are competing with workers in China, Vietnam, Mexico, etc. The international economy is a drag on U.S. labor. Of course, there are a number of industries that the U.S. can thrive in. But that takes cooperation between universities, tech schools, the gov't, corporations (large and small) and everyday people. We need to improve access to great education AND encourage company investment in the U.S. to help create the jobs. The jobs can't come here if we don't have the skills, and we can't teach the skills if the jobs don't come. So coordination needs to happen.
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17-07-2017, 11:01 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
Enough for tonight, but does everyone know how many minimum wage jobs we have in the U.S.? Here are the numbers. From 2014, but I doubt the numbers changed that much.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...imum-wage/

Quote:Perhaps surprisingly, not very many people earn minimum wage, and they make up a smaller share of the workforce than they used to. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, last year 1.532 million hourly workers earned the federal minimum of $7.25 an hour; nearly 1.8 million more earned less than that because they fell under one of several exemptions (tipped employees, full-time students, certain disabled workers and others), for a total of 3.3 million hourly workers at or below the federal minimum.

That group represents 4.3% of the nation’s 75.9 million hourly-paid workers and 2.6% of all wage and salary workers. In 1979, when the BLS began regularly studying minimum-wage workers, they represented 13.4% of hourly workers and 7.9% of all wage and salary workers. (Bear in mind that the 3.3 million figure doesn’t include salaried workers, although BLS says relatively few salaried workers are paid at what would translate into below-minimum hourly rates. Also, 23 states, as well as the District of Columbia, have higher minimum wages than the federal standard; people who earned the state minimum wage in those jurisdictions aren’t included in the 3.3 million total.)

People at or below the federal minimum are:

Disproportionately young: 50.4% are ages 16 to 24; 24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19).
Mostly (77%) white; nearly half are white women.
Largely part-time workers (64% of the total).
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17-07-2017, 11:02 PM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 10:55 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 10:39 PM)JesseB Wrote:  This is an inherently broken system not because of the governments attempt to fix the problem, but because businesses large and small realized that they can bring back slavery in the form of wage slavery. Effectively under paying employee's intentionally so they can absorb the extra benefits from the employee's work. The fucking CEO doesn't deserve 300% more than the average employee because he's somehow more important or more skilled than the others. It's a team fucking effort to bring products goods and services to market, he deserves 300% more because he can get away with easily fucking over everyone below him and no one will stop him. Especially when every other fucking company is doing the same damn thing. The rich, and upper class only get there by stealing from the poor. So fuck them.

Why do you think the poor have an us vs them view of this. It's because that's exactly what's fucking going on. Fuck them I for one remember the french revolution. It'll happen again, unlike them I'm not so stupid as to think this unsustainable broken path can last forever.

CEO pay is an entirely different matter than the topic of this thread, and yes I think they are overpaid. The problem we face is greater than the "greedy bastards" headquartered in NYC - for example. We live in an international economy with connections throughout. We are members of the WTO with the stated goal to maximize free trade. That means U.S. workers are competing with workers in China, Vietnam, Mexico, etc. The international economy is a drag on U.S. labor. Of course, there are a number of industries that the U.S. can thrive in. But that takes cooperation between universities, tech schools, the gov't, corporations (large and small) and everyday people. We need to improve access to great education AND encourage company investment in the U.S. to help create the jobs. The jobs can't come here if we don't have the skills, and we can't teach the skills if the jobs don't come. So coordination needs to happen.

It all relates to poverty, people wanna bitch about giving the fucking poor a wage they could actually fucking live on..... yet ignore that the reason they are in that position is because CEO's would rather make sex dolls from wads of cash and fuck em every night rather than pay employee's what they fucking earned. Then the gov comes in and tries to fix this fucked up mess and ya'll wanna blame the gov for taxing everyone into poverty...... fucking hell..... really? THAT'S THE PROBLEM? Bullshit.

Rich people aren't greedy, they are diseased. People wanna get on me for being fat, they say I lack self control. Rich people lack self control and they'll burn down the whole fucking world and eventually seal the coffin on their own fate just for another fucking penny in their bank accounts.

I've known some people with real money, I remember one was being really nice to me helping me out with stuff. Someone took me aside and said "hey dude I don't know if you realize this? But he didn't get to where he is by caring about anyone else but himself" (aka he was using me and It was a warning that if I wanted to survive I needed to be prepared for the back stab)

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17-07-2017, 11:12 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2017 11:17 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 11:01 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Enough for tonight, but does everyone know how many minimum wage jobs we have in the U.S.? Here are the numbers. From 2014, but I doubt the numbers changed that much.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...imum-wage/

Quote:Perhaps surprisingly, not very many people earn minimum wage, and they make up a smaller share of the workforce than they used to. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, last year 1.532 million hourly workers earned the federal minimum of $7.25 an hour; nearly 1.8 million more earned less than that because they fell under one of several exemptions (tipped employees, full-time students, certain disabled workers and others), for a total of 3.3 million hourly workers at or below the federal minimum.

That group represents 4.3% of the nation’s 75.9 million hourly-paid workers and 2.6% of all wage and salary workers. In 1979, when the BLS began regularly studying minimum-wage workers, they represented 13.4% of hourly workers and 7.9% of all wage and salary workers. (Bear in mind that the 3.3 million figure doesn’t include salaried workers, although BLS says relatively few salaried workers are paid at what would translate into below-minimum hourly rates. Also, 23 states, as well as the District of Columbia, have higher minimum wages than the federal standard; people who earned the state minimum wage in those jurisdictions aren’t included in the 3.3 million total.)

People at or below the federal minimum are:

Disproportionately young: 50.4% are ages 16 to 24; 24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19).
Mostly (77%) white; nearly half are white women.
Largely part-time workers (64% of the total).

If they are counting the minimum wage as 7.whatever then those statistics are bullshit. Minimum wage varies by area, and if wages simply kept pace with inflation since this disparity began workers would be making 20 dollars an hour for minimum wage. Or did you not look at pay vs productivity and cross check the cost of inflation vs the fact wages haven't really gone up in what 100 years almost?

Edit^ more like 50 years but still...

Here, have a look....
[Image: productivity-chart-1948-2013.png?w=640&h=412]

Anyone really can't see this is the people at the top enforcing wage slavery on a population?

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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18-07-2017, 12:15 AM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
I'm inclined to say that neoclassical economics approaches have failed so far, so it's maybe time to try something different. Europe has proved that a welfare state can work, although the Brits and others are now diligently trying to dismantle theirs. All this worship of free trade and low taxation has given us the current situation, where some individuals accumulate wealth in obscene amounts while others have nothing.

Also technology has an impact that cannot be ignored. Industries that once provided thousands of jobs now only provide relatively few. Also those industries are dominated by single companies or a few large companies.

If we continue as we are, then we will develop the current unequally distributed wealth situation still further. It does NOT have to be this way IMO.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-07-2017, 12:58 AM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(18-07-2017 12:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  I'm inclined to say that neoclassical economics approaches have failed so far, so it's maybe time to try something different. Europe has proved that a welfare state can work, although the Brits and others are now diligently trying to dismantle theirs. All this worship of free trade and low taxation has given us the current situation, where some individuals accumulate wealth in obscene amounts while others have nothing.

Also technology has an impact that cannot be ignored. Industries that once provided thousands of jobs now only provide relatively few. Also those industries are dominated by single companies or a few large companies.

If we continue as we are, then we will develop the current unequally distributed wealth situation still further. It does NOT have to be this way IMO.

Personally I think a free market system could/can work but only if we find a way to install real protections. I mean we've been doing it a while and think about it, we have the house because the senate was a millionaires club, we have anti trust laws because of abuse, unions to fight abusive working conditions.... I mean almost everything we do is to counter the rich from corrupting our government, our legal system, and keep them from knowingly fucking us all over. That's all they've done this whole time and they've done it BECAUSE there were always openings that would allow them a foot in the door. NOW as to the question if it's worth actually trying to build a free market system with proper protections and limitations as opposed to just scrapping it and moving to a more welfare state style of government, well I couldn't say for sure. Nor would I pretend to know ultimately what the superior option is, but as you've pointed out. Countries have been trying it and it does seem to work pretty consistently. Not without issues, but no country has tried a full "free market" OR a full "welfare state" Why? Cause even a blind rock can see either one adhered to an ideological extreme is an asinine idea.

A full "free market" based society would instantly become an oligarchy of the most extreme order. It would be akin to just abolishing the government and making the people direct slaves to the corporations. It would be hell for almost everyone, and a hell that once established would never move. No one would become rich that isn't rich already....

And the truest of the true welfare states would become brutal government controlled dictatorships. You can't stop people from abusing power. All you can do is limit giving them power in the first place. Which is why we can't have a true "free market" either.

To be a business owner what you need is a lack of empathy and a certain willingness to break the law, and manipulate both people and the legal system to your favor. This is like MBA 101 shit right there. Hell I have friends with MBA's who have essentially said this without thinking there might be anything wrong or morally questionable or ethically problematic with it.

What you don't need as a business owner are, ethics, compassion, principles, respect for others, a balanced view of the world. Or really anything other than hey lets fuck everyone over all the time. And in the end this is really how it plays out. When you look under the curtain even the most "honest" business dealings are bullshit horse and pony shows hiding all kinds of corruption.

Now maybe this is really a cultural thing, but I don't think so. Seems to me it's always been this way. It's the poor who were lied to, who were forced into Prussian built educational systems designed to keep them poor, and under educated. Most people have been nothing more than cattle for almost the entirety of written human history for the benefit of a small group of people who honestly have a more elitist view of themselves than white supremacist (though.... most of them have been white so who know's maybe that's a part of the issue...). They think they are inherently better than everyone else because they have more money. Fuck my dad thinks this and he's too stupid to realize in the grand scheme of things? He's fucking poor. These days it's almost like there's 2 kinds of people in the world. Trillion-ares and poor people. Those at the top make all the rules, they literally own the government. Our votes are clearly and obviously meaningless yet we play these stupid politics games.

So yea.... for sure we need some changes, and Morondog, I don't think what you propose is a bad idea personally. But for sure any system if taken to an extreme is likely to be abusive, we need to really think about stuff and focus on the changes we know produce meaningful results.

And just cause I feel like saying it again. Fuck the rich.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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18-07-2017, 06:03 AM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 10:33 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Hey if it wasn't for minimum wage half my raises wouldn't exist (raises from the jobs I worked that paid minimum wage, this would include Game Crazy, Staples, hmm... other service jobs I have done at various points in my life for some reason I'm blanking on the others)

Companies that pay minimum wage at most offer raises on an annual basis between 0.05 and 0.25.... yea..... you heard that right....

You're failing to note that each time you got a "" raise," in minimum wage - some other guy who was busting his ass to get ahead, and had received a pay raise to "minimum wage" + (whatever raise he'd earned) was now knocked back down to minimum wage....

In other words, any incentive to work hard is removed...


All minimum wage does is put more people at the very bottom of the pay scale.

Soon, inflation will correct things till you're right back where you started - with not enough money.....

But don't bother working hard to get ahead...

Cuz you know what's going to happen.... They'll raise minimum wage again......


Round and round we go... Everybody stays poor...

( and the people on fixed incomes - like Grandma scraping by on SSI, well fuck her, huh???)

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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18-07-2017, 07:03 AM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
(17-07-2017 11:12 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 11:01 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Enough for tonight, but does everyone know how many minimum wage jobs we have in the U.S.? Here are the numbers. From 2014, but I doubt the numbers changed that much.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...imum-wage/

If they are counting the minimum wage as 7.whatever then those statistics are bullshit. Minimum wage varies by area, and if wages simply kept pace with inflation since this disparity began workers would be making 20 dollars an hour for minimum wage. Or did you not look at pay vs productivity and cross check the cost of inflation vs the fact wages haven't really gone up in what 100 years almost?

Edit^ more like 50 years but still...

Here, have a look....
[Image: productivity-chart-1948-2013.png?w=640&h=412]

Anyone really can't see this is the people at the top enforcing wage slavery on a population?

I'm well aware of stagnating wage growth since the 70s. Here is a link to the same source you cited on the author's views on the causes for wage stagnation.

http://www.epi.org/publication/causes-of...tagnation/

Assuming the author ordered the causes from what he feels is the most important to the least, at the top of the list was the Fed's abandonment of "full employment" policies in favor of fighting inflation. In the early 70s, Arthur Burns and economic advisers to Nixon pursued this approach and ultimately contributed to the stagflation problem - with the OPEC embargo being the final nail in the coffin. The idea of pursuing full employment is primarily managed by whether the country expands the money supply at aggressive rates so that cheap money is plentiful for pursuing growth. It was unsustainable and the embargo ultimately made the system grind to a halt. Nixon's price controls on oil/gas simply added fuel to the fire. It also accelerated the end of the gold standard since there was too great of a dollar overhang relative to the gold available in the U.S. That's for a different thread though.

Despite the fact that the Fed shifted to much stricter policies for growing the money supply, they still were more expansionist than they should have been if they were following the monetarist policies recommended by Friedman. The bottom line is that seeking full employment policies is like seeking the holy grail. When you have policy levers of this size, it's very hard to skirt the edge without going over. That's the reason why the move from full employment polices to inflation control policies happened. The stagflation was so crippling that most economists agree with the approach of being inflation hawks.

Aside from the shift in Fed policies, I think the other detriments to wage growth were productivity gains due to tech improvements (PCs started in the early 1980s), growth in free trade that expanded the labor market and illegal immigration that keeps wages low domestically for the lower skilled jobs.
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18-07-2017, 07:18 AM
RE: Seattle - how to tax a city into poverty
There's several factors that go into wage stagnation.

Greed?

Sure.

Employer anticipating an increased minimum wage?

Any sensible company is going to look at it...

.......................................

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