Secular Morality
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14-05-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 12:13 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  As I was saying in my post about the "Categorical Imperative" being, essentially, the Golden Rule, there is actually something very compelling about "Christianity". This religion is, according to my own interpretation, Essene Gnosticism, in which the core concept is that morality is a product of "reason". The philosophy which emerges is one which allows one to live in harmony with other people, one embraces one's enemies so that one no longer has any enemies and ultimately one should, if one practices it properly, lead a life of peace and contentment.

As we all know, the starting point in Zen Buddhism is anxiety and it is through mindful meditation that one finds a "path" to spiritual enlightenment. In Christianity the end goal for man is "atonement", which simply means feeling "at one". By following this religion, then, and being a "good" person, one enters into the "kingdom" of "heaven" in that one is presumably, liked and respected, loved even, by all and one can die contented that one has lead a good life, done a bit of good and one's good deeds, good character, one's "spirit" will live on in the memories of others.

Amen.Angel

I will never understand why someone wants to live their entire life preparing for being dead.
People can't imagine being dead because they've never been dead before so, they made up this afterlife bullshit to make everybody feel warm/fuzzy about it.
Living a morally good life will reward you plenty while you're alive, it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.
Death is not the starting line, it's the finish line. That's it. Wave the checkered flag the race is over.
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14-05-2014, 01:31 PM
RE: Secular Morality
It's been said, but there is not a single unique moral teaching of Christianity that is not found in other religions that predate Christianity.

Not unlike every holiday and ritual.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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14-05-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 12:32 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 12:13 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  As we all know, the starting point in Zen Buddhism is anxiety and it is through mindful meditation that one finds a "path" to spiritual enlightenment.

Why do you specify Zen, which has nothing at all to do with the Buddha's teachings?

Wasn't Zen a Japanese offshoot, with influences of Bushido and worship of the Emperor of Japan as a 'Tathagata' or fully enlightened god-king? Consider

I know very little about Buddhism.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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14-05-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 01:11 PM)pablo628 Wrote:  People can't imagine being dead because they've never been dead before so, they made up this afterlife bullshit to make everybody feel warm/fuzzy about it.

We were all dead, right up until the moment we were born. I don't remember the past billion years before I existed being all that bad; I'm guessing the billion after will be similar.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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14-05-2014, 02:12 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(13-05-2014 08:06 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  If one accepts Christianity they must accept the fact that people like Hitler get off scott free by asking for forgiveness before they die.

But we don't decide what's true based on how comfortable we are with the consequences. We decide what's true based on evidence of what is true.

Yes, the great ol' Christian Loophole. You can murder hundreds of people but if you ask for forgiveness then, hey, you're good for eternity. What matters is the here and now. We only have this one life, everybody does, and with that as a factor then making others miserable during our brief stay is illogical. Countries that have the highest rate of atheism also have the lowest crime rate and also happen to have the highest rate of happiness, so religion has zip to do with morality. If it did then the most religious countries would have the lowest crime rate and the highest rate of happiness and that 'taint the reality. Curiously enough, many of the countries that have the death penalty are more religious.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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14-05-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 01:40 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 12:32 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Why do you specify Zen, which has nothing at all to do with the Buddha's teachings?

Wasn't Zen a Japanese offshoot, with influences of Bushido and worship of the Emperor of Japan as a 'Tathagata' or fully enlightened god-king? Consider

I know very little about Buddhism.

Not that I know of, especially the emperor part.


There are LOTS of sects of Zen. And all of them have different origins, practices, and beliefs. Seems much of it was rejection of the Abhidhamma, which was pretty much Brahminism swallowing Buddhism and turning into...Brahminism.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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14-05-2014, 02:19 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 02:12 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Countries that have the highest rate of atheism also have the lowest crime rate and also happen to have the highest rate of happiness, so religion has zip to do with morality. If it did then the most religious countries would have the lowest crime rate and the highest rate of happiness and that 'taint the reality. Curiously enough, many of the countries that have the death penalty are more religious.

Do you have a source for this fact of relevance?

Which have better politics and wealth?

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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14-05-2014, 03:22 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 02:19 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 02:12 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Countries that have the highest rate of atheism also have the lowest crime rate and also happen to have the highest rate of happiness, so religion has zip to do with morality. If it did then the most religious countries would have the lowest crime rate and the highest rate of happiness and that 'taint the reality. Curiously enough, many of the countries that have the death penalty are more religious.

Do you have a source for this fact of relevance?

Which have better politics and wealth?

Here's one study.....

http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.pdf

Here's a breakdown on the previous study.....

http://intcoex.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/...-to-study/

There's some interesting things in this study too....

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/...theism.pdf

Here's kind of an overview of that study....

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-...d-religion

Of course, all the theist's get their panties in a twist and try to rework all the numbers, but all in all atheist countries have the least crime. Even in the US the most religious states have the most crime. In the US and the UK there are more religious people in prisons that non-believers. Mostly it comes down to education. The more educated a person is the less religious one is.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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14-05-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 03:22 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  There's some interesting things in this study too....

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/...theism.pdf

Here's kind of an overview of that study....

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-...d-religion

Quote:Of course, things can be messy. For instance, someone can be secular and yet not be
an atheist, such as an individual who never attends religious services or activities, doesn’t
describe herself as religious, and yet still believes in something she would refer to as God
(Shibley 2004). Or a person can be religious while also being an atheist; there are many
religious traditions – particularly in the East – that don’t contain a specific belief in God
(Eller 2007; Martin 2007), and for many other people, belief in God is largely absent
from their idiosyncratic religious identities (McGuire 2008; Casebolt and Niekro 2005).
Then there are people who eschew the designation ‘‘religious’’ in favor of ‘‘spiritual’’
(Fuller 2001; Stark et al. 2005). Finally, millions of people are ‘‘culturally religious,’’
identifying with a religious tradition, but without believing in the theological content
thereof (Demerath 2000; Zuckerman 2008).

This guy recognizes that there is a problem here, and it is what I want to correct. It appears that this study is going to be guided by inaccurate terms - especially the description of religion, and religious. But I'll read on.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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14-05-2014, 10:14 PM (This post was last modified: 14-05-2014 10:22 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 12:32 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 12:13 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  As I was saying in my post about the "Categorical Imperative" being, essentially, the Golden Rule, there is actually something very compelling about "Christianity".

...except that the xtards ripped off ethics of reciprocity -- the "Golden Rule" -- from the Buddha and others.





Quote:As we all know, the starting point in Zen Buddhism is anxiety and it is through mindful meditation that one finds a "path" to spiritual enlightenment.

Why do you specify Zen, which has nothing at all to do with the Buddha's teachings?

Zen is a form of Buddhsim: " Zen is a school of Mahayana Buddhism[note 1] that developed in China during the 6th century as Chán. From China, Zen spread south to Vietnam, northeast to Korea and east to Japan.[2]

The word Zen is derived from the Japanese pronunciation of the Middle Chinese word 禪 (dʑjen) (pinyin: Chán), which in turn is derived from the Sanskrit word dhyāna,[3] which can be approximately translated as "absorption" or "meditative state".[4]

Zen emphasizes the attainment of enlightenment and the personal expression of direct insight in the Buddhist teachings.[5] As such, it de-emphasizes mere knowledge of sutras and doctrine[5][6] and favors direct understanding through zazen and interaction with an accomplished teacher."Wiki

I think it is very debatable that all religious ideas which we now seem to find gaining in popularity in the West came from the Far East. There is a recent archaeological find in southern Turkey of the "oldest temple in the world" at Gobekli http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/go...65/?no-ist

People and civilization spread out from the center which in terms of the Indo-European world was the Near East, ie., Mesopotamia which is now Iraq, Iran, the Fertile Crescent.

I know people think Ellis is a nut but what he is saying is that this religion at Gobelki is far older than the Egyptians or Rome and this happens to be where he says Queen Helena was from who gives a golden Minorah to the Temple at Jerusalem, which is then taken by the Romans. I think Ellis also suspects but I don't know, that Gobelki was buried under sand at this time to prevent the Romans from destroying it, just as the Nag Hammadi manuscripts were buried because a fiat was issued that they be destroyed as heretical. That is a theory which I have read somewhere.

The Egyptians had an idea that life emerged from a miasma. Religions try to give people something to hang onto in the face of the great, scary, unknown. People are terrified of dying, most people. So, Zen focuses on exercises which have now been scientifically shown to calm the anxiety center of the brain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/08...90717.html

One theory is that the Tao is from the Near East and Egypt, not from Japan and China. The Old Testament uses the word "Thou" to refer to god. The Didache refers to two "ways" or paths, one of life and the other of death. I don't see any reason to think that these religious concepts came from the fringes of Indo-European civilization rather than from the center. After all, Buddhism spread to China and Japan from India, not the other way around. Ashoka was Indian and Indians are Indo-European.
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