Secular Morality
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14-05-2014, 10:26 PM (This post was last modified: 15-05-2014 11:37 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Secular Morality
The picture of Gobelki with the big stones...look at them...those are "Tao".
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15-05-2014, 08:21 AM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 10:14 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  One theory is that the Tao is from the Near East and Egypt, not from Japan and China. The Old Testament uses the word "Thou" to refer to god. The Didache refers to two "ways" or paths, one of life and the other of death.

That is pure Ellisian horseshit. The Elizabethan English translation of the Bible uses 'thou'. Your word comparison is centuries off the mark - it is incredibly stupid.

I see why you like Ellis - simple minds enjoy simplistic bullshit.

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15-05-2014, 08:26 AM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 10:26 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  The picture of Gobelki with the big stones...look a them...those are "Tao".

In what way? Because they sort of form T's? You are daft.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-05-2014, 03:29 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 02:15 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 01:40 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Wasn't Zen a Japanese offshoot, with influences of Bushido and worship of the Emperor of Japan as a 'Tathagata' or fully enlightened god-king? Consider

I know very little about Buddhism.

Not that I know of, especially the emperor part.


There are LOTS of sects of Zen. And all of them have different origins, practices, and beliefs. Seems much of it was rejection of the Abhidhamma, which was pretty much Brahminism swallowing Buddhism and turning into...Brahminism.


Well, I still lost a few hours to browsing Wikipedia. Thanks Taq... Dodgy






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15-05-2014, 05:14 PM (This post was last modified: 15-05-2014 05:42 PM by rampant.a.i..)
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 10:14 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 12:32 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  ...except that the xtards ripped off ethics of reciprocity -- the "Golden Rule" -- from the Buddha and others.






Why do you specify Zen, which has nothing at all to do with the Buddha's teachings?

Zen is a form of Buddhsim: " Zen is a school of Mahayana Buddhism[note 1] that developed in China during the 6th century as Chán. From China, Zen spread south to Vietnam, northeast to Korea and east to Japan.[2]

The word Zen is derived from the Japanese pronunciation of the Middle Chinese word 禪 (dʑjen) (pinyin: Chán), which in turn is derived from the Sanskrit word dhyāna,[3] which can be approximately translated as "absorption" or "meditative state".[4]

Zen emphasizes the attainment of enlightenment and the personal expression of direct insight in the Buddhist teachings.[5] As such, it de-emphasizes mere knowledge of sutras and doctrine[5][6] and favors direct understanding through zazen and interaction with an accomplished teacher."Wiki

I think it is very debatable that all religious ideas which we now seem to find gaining in popularity in the West came from the Far East. There is a recent archaeological find in southern Turkey of the "oldest temple in the world" at Gobekli http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/go...65/?no-ist

People and civilization spread out from the center which in terms of the Indo-European world was the Near East, ie., Mesopotamia which is now Iraq, Iran, the Fertile Crescent.

I know people think Ellis is a nut but what he is saying is that this religion at Gobelki is far older than the Egyptians or Rome and this happens to be where he says Queen Helena was from who gives a golden Minorah to the Temple at Jerusalem, which is then taken by the Romans. I think Ellis also suspects but I don't know, that Gobelki was buried under sand at this time to prevent the Romans from destroying it, just as the Nag Hammadi manuscripts were buried because a fiat was issued that they be destroyed as heretical. That is a theory which I have read somewhere.

The Egyptians had an idea that life emerged from a miasma. Religions try to give people something to hang onto in the face of the great, scary, unknown. People are terrified of dying, most people. So, Zen focuses on exercises which have now been scientifically shown to calm the anxiety center of the brain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/08...90717.html

One theory is that the Tao is from the Near East and Egypt, not from Japan and China. The Old Testament uses the word "Thou" to refer to god. The Didache refers to two "ways" or paths, one of life and the other of death. I don't see any reason to think that these religious concepts came from the fringes of Indo-European civilization rather than from the center. After all, Buddhism spread to China and Japan from India, not the other way around. Ashoka was Indian and Indians are Indo-European.

That's interesting, because of the Eastern parallels that show up in very early Christianity, however Buddhism originated in India between 5-6 century CE, and Zen was introduced to China somewhere in that range. Buddhism wasn't introduced to Japan until 8 century CE, and Zen Buddhism introduced 12th century CE.

The Gnostic/Coptic idea of syzygy parallels Yang and Yin, but as far as ideas such as those expressed in Taoism being an integral part of Early Christianity, Lao Tzu penned the Tao Te Ching in 4 BCE, the earliest Gnostic texts are dated 2 CE, it's far more likely there was an absorption of ideas in from the Hellenistic tradition who had been in heavy contact and trade with the Chinese by way of the Silk Road for about 100 years, and in trade relations about 1000 years before that, and the Sumerians, who likely have had some contact with the Chinese, and whose cultural mythology absolutely influenced parts of Christianity.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
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15-05-2014, 09:55 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(15-05-2014 03:29 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 02:15 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Not that I know of, especially the emperor part.


There are LOTS of sects of Zen. And all of them have different origins, practices, and beliefs. Seems much of it was rejection of the Abhidhamma, which was pretty much Brahminism swallowing Buddhism and turning into...Brahminism.


Well, I still lost a few hours to browsing Wikipedia. Thanks Taq... Dodgy






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Careful with Wikipedia -- there is the same sort of shit going on with Buddhism as there is with xtianity -- the superstitious factions are working as hard as they can to promote their superstitions and delete and cut out references to the secular, non-superstitious nature of the Buddha's actual teachings. There is a LOT of Bullshit floating around out there. Leo and C4L will back me and attest to that as well, I am sure.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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15-05-2014, 10:19 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(14-05-2014 10:14 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 12:32 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  ...except that the xtards ripped off ethics of reciprocity -- the "Golden Rule" -- from the Buddha and others.






Why do you specify Zen, which has nothing at all to do with the Buddha's teachings?

Zen is a form of Buddhsim: " Zen is a school of Mahayana Buddhism[note 1] that developed in China during the 6th century as Chán. From China, Zen spread south to Vietnam, northeast to Korea and east to Japan.[2]


Um you seem to have missed what I said: "Zen...has nothing at all to do with the Buddha's teachings". Yes, they may identify as Buddhists, but the term "mahayana" is a slur against the schools of Buddhism which actually at least pay lip service to adhering to the Buddha's actual teachings, though many of them did and do not.




Quote:The word Zen is derived from the Japanese pronunciation of the Middle Chinese word 禪 (dʑjen) (pinyin: Chán), which in turn is derived from the Sanskrit word dhyāna,[3] which can be approximately translated as "absorption" or "meditative state".[4]

It's called "Zazen". And the fact that it was derived from SANSKRIT rather than the original Pali should be the first clue for anyone who has any knowledge on the subject that it comes from the later "Brahmanized" forms of what claims to be "Buddhism". Specifically from the Abhidhammists, who follow the teachings of the Brahmin Buddhaghosa, who pretty much single-handedly turned Buddhism into a form of Brahmanism.


Quote:Zen emphasizes the attainment of enlightenment


Um, this is copypasta. What the fuck is this "enlightenment" that you speak of? Do you even know? ProTip: It isn't the same thing to mahayanists as it was to the Buddha. Not by a looooong shot -- he didn't even use the term or anything like it.



Quote:and the personal expression of direct insight in the Buddhist teachings.[5]

-- which has a very special meaning in Zen, which was not there in the Buddha's teachings at all. What it means, is that, in the Zen view, a teacher could somehow magically bestow this imaginary, pie-in-the-sky "enlightenment" on his students. It's also part of the cult mentality that arise among the mahayanists, keeping them believing that if they stayed with the cray-cray, their Master would eventually wave his hands and make them "Enlightened™".


Quote: As such, it de-emphasizes mere knowledge of sutras and doctrine[5][6] and favors direct understanding through zazen and interaction with an accomplished teacher."Wiki


Yeah, and if you knew ANYTHING about the Buddha's actual teachings, you would immediately be seeing all kinds of red flags and hearing "Danger! Cult Alert!" warning bells.


The Buddha's teachings WERE the suttas (attributed to the Buddha) and the doctrines and disciplines (dhamma-vinaya) espoused by the Buddha. Why call oneself "Buddhist" if one rejects the doctrine and discipline of the man we call "the Buddha"? And just what is an "accomplished teacher" in their view? I'll tell you -- one who has drunk the Kool-Aid of their particular sect.

People of various sects of Zen will only acknowledge their own Masters as "Accomplished teachers".

You hear the same shit with the tibetan religions, which are even further removed from tee Buddha's teachings and even more into the cray-cray.






Quote:I think it is very debatable that all religious ideas which we now seem to find gaining in popularity in the West came from the Far East.


Not sure of the relevance of that statement, if it is supposed to follow your description of mahayana above. Certainly Buddhism and any ideas that are described as, or attributed to, Buddhism (in whatever form) came from the East. Not sure it matters anyway.



Quote: There is a recent archaeological find in southern Turkey of the "oldest temple in the world" at Gobekli http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/go...65/?no-ist

People and civilization spread out from the center which in terms of the Indo-European world was the Near East, ie., Mesopotamia which is now Iraq, Iran, the Fertile Crescent.

I know people think Ellis is a nut but what he is saying is that this religion at Gobelki is far older than the Egyptians or Rome and this happens to be where he says Queen Helena was from who gives a golden Minorah to the Temple at Jerusalem, which is then taken by the Romans. I think Ellis also suspects but I don't know, that Gobelki was buried under sand at this time to prevent the Romans from destroying it, just as the Nag Hammadi manuscripts were buried because a fiat was issued that they be destroyed as heretical. That is a theory which I have read somewhere.

The Egyptians had an idea that life emerged from a miasma. Religions try to give people something to hang onto in the face of the great, scary, unknown. People are terrified of dying, most people. So, Zen focuses on exercises which have now been scientifically shown to calm the anxiety center of the brain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/08...90717.html

No comment.



Quote:One theory is that the Tao is from the Near East and Egypt, not from Japan and China. The Old Testament uses the word "Thou" to refer to god. The Didache refers to two "ways" or paths, one of life and the other of death. I don't see any reason to think that these religious concepts came from the fringes of Indo-European civilization rather than from the center. After all, Buddhism spread to China and Japan from India, not the other way around. Ashoka was Indian and Indians are Indo-European.



I don't think it was called "India" in the Buddha's time or shortly thereafter, and it CERTAINLY wasn't "Indo-European" back then.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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15-05-2014, 10:25 PM
RE: Secular Morality
(15-05-2014 05:14 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  That's interesting, because of the Eastern parallels that show up in very early Christianity, however Buddhism originated in India between 5-6 century CE, and Zen was introduced to China somewhere in that range. Buddhism wasn't introduced to Japan until 8 century CE, and Zen Buddhism introduced 12th century CE.


Correction, friend: Bodhidharma was credited with introducing Zen to China in the 5th or 6th century CE. The Buddha was born in what is now Nepal some thousand years earlier, in the 4-5th century *BCE*.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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15-05-2014, 10:29 PM
Secular Morality
Yeah, but it's a whole new level of superstitious sadness.

Here we have a religion founded by a guy who broke away from the dominant religious tradition of his day, with the foresight to warn his followers never to write down anything he said, lest it be codified into a religion at some later date.

Siddhartha predicted and tried to avoid a lot of what we've been trying to repair for the last 20 years in western society, from 563 BCE-483 CE.

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15-05-2014, 10:43 PM (This post was last modified: 15-05-2014 10:51 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Secular Morality
(15-05-2014 10:29 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Yeah, but it's a whole new level of superstitious sadness.

Here we have a religion founded by a guy who broke away from the dominant religious tradition of his day, with the foresight to warn his followers never to write down anything he said, lest it be codified into a religion at some later date.

You seem to get the gist, anyway, and yeah, it's sad. What he did was reject the superstitions and try to offer a secular understanding of the world and a morality based on an ethics of reciprocity, along with some mental disciplines and practices (meditation, etc) he thought would help guide folks who saw value in that morality into a mindset where they could easily break free from old habits and put that new morality into practice in their daily lives.


In the end, Brahminism pretty much swallowed up "Buddhism" and turned it into something entirely different. Which is why all the current confusion about it today.




I can go a whole lot more into it, and can explain it in easy terms, if you think you might be interested to learn a little more about it. The short version is that he pretty much tried to espouse a 'Golden Rule" ethics of reciprocity, and suggested some ways and methods that folks might use to try to get from wherever they were to there.



Of course, once he kicked it, people who didn't really get it eventually fucked it up....



Quote:Siddhartha predicted and tried to avoid a lot of what we've been trying to repair for the last 20 years in western society, from 563 BCE-483 CE.



It seems to me that he (or the people who invented him, a possibility I do not discount) had a pretty good handle on human nature. Which is what, in my view, makes his teachings important even today. Even then he claimed that his insights were timeless, and your statement above supports his 2600-year-old claim. As well as my assessment. People say today that "pain is inevitable, suffering is optional". This is pretty much the gist of what he called his "Four Noble Truths", from which he developed his "Noble Eightfold Path" as a means from getting from a point of mentally suffering over hardships (and even wonders) in life to a point of taking life as it comes in stride.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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