"Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
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22-11-2013, 11:27 AM
RE: "Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
It would not be a good thing, we should protect all cultures.
It not true that languages are interchangeable and just a way to communicate.
I'm sure that if English ever become treaten, for real, you will see lost of people stand up to defend it.

(22-11-2013 11:21 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 10:59 AM)BetePolitique Wrote:  Whatever!
You obviously want everyone to speak English.

You say that as if it would be a bad thing.

It would certainly do much to remove language barriers and similar problems which to this day interfere with and complicate international affairs...

Also, as a note, more people speak Spanish than English too.

My culture is being attacked by the Spaniards and the Chinese.

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22-11-2013, 11:30 AM
RE: "Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
(22-11-2013 11:27 AM)BetePolitique Wrote:  It would not be a good thing, we should protect all cultures.
It not true that languages are interchangeable and just a way to communicate.
I'm sure that if English ever become treaten, for real, you will see lost of people stand up to defend it.

However, the subject of this thread is not the French language.

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22-11-2013, 11:37 AM
RE: "Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
(22-11-2013 11:27 AM)BetePolitique Wrote:  It would not be a good thing, we should protect all cultures.
It not true that languages are interchangeable and just a way to communicate.
I'm sure that if English ever become treaten, for real, you will see lost of people stand up to defend it.

(22-11-2013 11:21 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  You say that as if it would be a bad thing.

It would certainly do much to remove language barriers and similar problems which to this day interfere with and complicate international affairs...

Also, as a note, more people speak Spanish than English too.

My culture is being attacked by the Spaniards and the Chinese.

Languages are most certainly not interchangeable; some languages lack key expressions of others and some cannot even be accurately translated without much creative interpretation (Think Arabic and Hebrew for two examples).
just because English and French can almost be interchanged doesn't mean all languages have that capacity.

As for English not being under siege, it is by your logic.

There are roughly three times as many Mandarin speakers than English (955 million native speakers to 359 mil). And Spanish is spoken by more native speakers and accounts for a greater portion of world population than English. Plus both groups are always spreading everywhere, I'm telling you; under attack.

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22-11-2013, 11:38 AM
RE: "Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
(22-11-2013 11:20 AM)BetePolitique Wrote:  Ethnic nationalism from a minority!

Yes.

You seem to think that national chauvinism is only bad when practiced by a majority, or perhaps even that only a majority can practice it.

That's delusional.

(22-11-2013 11:20 AM)BetePolitique Wrote:  So Armenians are ethnic cleansers!

That's every kind of irrelevant straw man emotional appeal in one. Irrelevant.
(incidentally: they are)

I said your 19th century mindset reminded me of the Balkans for a reason. I could easily have said Caucasus, but I went for better name recognition.

(22-11-2013 11:20 AM)BetePolitique Wrote:  There are two types of nationalism, the one of the majority trying to destroy a minority and there's the one of the minority scared that the majority will be nationalist.

If you can't see through your nationalist persecution complex, that's too bad. There is one type of nationalism, and it says "we're better than those nasty others".

"Trying to destroy a minority" is not something anyone outside Quebec has done.

(22-11-2013 11:20 AM)BetePolitique Wrote:  You are saying French Canadian are a treat to English Canadians, I’m saying it’s the other way around.

I'm saying you should treat people equally. Wild, I know.

(22-11-2013 11:20 AM)BetePolitique Wrote:  And yes, you sound pretty racist to me.

Treating minorities within Quebec differently than the Quebecois minority is treated within Canada is not cool. I happen to believe in equality and democracy.

You, on the other hand, go full bore cognitive dissonance. In which it's okay for people in Quebec to treat minorities poorly but oppressive and destructive simply for the rest-of-Canada majority to exist.

Pointing this out to you apparently makes me racist.

Well, you can't argue with that line of, er, *reasoning*.

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22-11-2013, 11:39 AM
RE: "Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
Then protect it.
You want money?

(22-11-2013 11:37 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 11:27 AM)BetePolitique Wrote:  It would not be a good thing, we should protect all cultures.
It not true that languages are interchangeable and just a way to communicate.
I'm sure that if English ever become treaten, for real, you will see lost of people stand up to defend it.

Languages are most certainly not interchangeable; some languages lack key expressions of others and some cannot even be accurately translated without much creative interpretation (Think Arabic and Hebrew for two examples).
just because English and French can almost be interchanged doesn't mean all languages have that capacity.

As for English not being under siege, it is by your logic.

There are roughly three times as many Mandarin speakers than English (955 million native speakers to 359 mil). And Spanish is spoken by more native speakers and accounts for a greater portion of world population than English. Plus both groups are always spreading everywhere, I'm telling you; under attack.

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22-11-2013, 11:51 AM
RE: "Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
I actually understand where Bete is coming from.

Last time I was in Munich, I had not been there in a very long time.

The streets used to be full of people speaking Bavarian, the restaurants served Bavarian food and beer (yum) , there were all kinds of little cultural oddities like women with huge baskets full of fresh picked herbs and herb candy, chestnuts being roasted on the sidewalk, sugar coated almonds being roasted, and all kinds of things like that, culturally unique stuff.

The air smelled heavenly from all of that.

Fast forward to the last time I was there - there was hardly any German spoken in the streets, never mind Bavarian. No scents, just a city smell. No spice ladies or chestnut men. Pizza places and a new type of café instead of the beer halls and Bavarian food places. It was sad. Just a memory now, the reality is forever lost. I will never smell that scent again.

So yes, I do understand how it can be important to preserve culture. I am at a total loss though how it can be done anymore. I think culture is doomed on the planet. We'll recreate the foods and have ethnic restaurants, maybe create a Disney world type thingie where you have areas resembling cultures, but the real thing will be forever gone.

I am not saying that I agree with the law in the OP at all.

I am however saying that the loss of cultures is a sad thing.

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22-11-2013, 12:42 PM
RE: "Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
(22-11-2013 11:51 AM)Dom Wrote:  I actually understand where Bete is coming from.

Last time I was in Munich, I had not been there in a very long time.

The streets used to be full of people speaking Bavarian, the restaurants served Bavarian food and beer (yum) , there were all kinds of little cultural oddities like women with huge baskets full of fresh picked herbs and herb candy, chestnuts being roasted on the sidewalk, sugar coated almonds being roasted, and all kinds of things like that, culturally unique stuff.

The air smelled heavenly from all of that.

Fast forward to the last time I was there - there was hardly any German spoken in the streets, never mind Bavarian. No scents, just a city smell. No spice ladies or chestnut men. Pizza places and a new type of café instead of the beer halls and Bavarian food places. It was sad. Just a memory now, the reality is forever lost. I will never smell that scent again.

Well, sure. That's a valid concern.

Draconian laws restricting free expression aren't the way to deal with it. And a perpetual nationalistic siege mentality is the opposite of healthy.

(22-11-2013 11:51 AM)Dom Wrote:  So yes, I do understand how it can be important to preserve culture. I am at a total loss though how it can be done anymore. I think culture is doomed on the planet. We'll recreate the foods and have ethnic restaurants, maybe create a Disney world type thingie where you have areas resembling cultures, but the real thing will be forever gone.

I can definitely get that sentiment. "Diversity is good" is pretty boilerplate, but true nonetheless.

And yet at the same time...

The drive for a culture comes in part from people's desire to fit together - to have things (experiences, works of art, traditions, etc) to share with each other; to have things in common. That's more possible on a global level now than ever. I can talk to just about anyone on the planet without getting up. In 48 hours I could be on their doorstep. We can talk about some of the same concerns, the same sports, the same entertainment, the same politics. We'd probably talk in English, yes, for various historical reasons, but we both may know and use other languages in other spheres (and if you want to talk to each other, you need a language in common). But the corollary to that is that I don't see a way to avoid having some local aspects subsumed into a global homogeneity. With people across the world more in touch with and more aware of each other than ever, they'll want (I'd go so far as to say they'll need) to have some common foundations.

And I can't call that a bad thing.

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22-11-2013, 12:51 PM
RE: "Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
The melting pot is unavoidable anyway, and yes, on many levels it's a good thing. But I thought about it at length some time ago, and there is absolutely no way I can see to preserve culture and yet let the melting pot do it's magic.

If you are young, invest in some culture specific, authentic objects. By the time you retire, they will be worth a chunk.

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22-11-2013, 12:55 PM
RE: "Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
(22-11-2013 12:42 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 11:51 AM)Dom Wrote:  I actually understand where Bete is coming from.

Last time I was in Munich, I had not been there in a very long time.

The streets used to be full of people speaking Bavarian, the restaurants served Bavarian food and beer (yum) , there were all kinds of little cultural oddities like women with huge baskets full of fresh picked herbs and herb candy, chestnuts being roasted on the sidewalk, sugar coated almonds being roasted, and all kinds of things like that, culturally unique stuff.

The air smelled heavenly from all of that.

Fast forward to the last time I was there - there was hardly any German spoken in the streets, never mind Bavarian. No scents, just a city smell. No spice ladies or chestnut men. Pizza places and a new type of café instead of the beer halls and Bavarian food places. It was sad. Just a memory now, the reality is forever lost. I will never smell that scent again.

Well, sure. That's a valid concern.

Draconian laws restricting free expression aren't the way to deal with it. And a perpetual nationalistic siege mentality is the opposite of healthy.

(22-11-2013 11:51 AM)Dom Wrote:  So yes, I do understand how it can be important to preserve culture. I am at a total loss though how it can be done anymore. I think culture is doomed on the planet. We'll recreate the foods and have ethnic restaurants, maybe create a Disney world type thingie where you have areas resembling cultures, but the real thing will be forever gone.

I can definitely get that sentiment. "Diversity is good" is pretty boilerplate, but true nonetheless.

And yet at the same time...

The drive for a culture comes in part from people's desire to fit together - to have things (experiences, works of art, traditions, etc) to share with each other; to have things in common. That's more possible on a global level now than ever. I can talk to just about anyone on the planet without getting up. In 48 hours I could be on their doorstep. We can talk about some of the same concerns, the same sports, the same entertainment, the same politics. We'd probably talk in English, yes, for various historical reasons, but we both may know and use other languages in other spheres (and if you want to talk to each other, you need a language in common). But the corollary to that is that I don't see a way to avoid having some local aspects subsumed into a global homogeneity. With people across the world more in touch with and more aware of each other than ever, they'll want (I'd go so far as to say they'll need) to have some common foundations.

And I can't call that a bad thing.

Is cultural diversity self-evidently good?

I think not. It is not without its negative aspects - 'us' vs. 'them' divisiveness.

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22-11-2013, 01:28 PM
RE: "Secularism" as a front for religion-motivated laws in Quebec
(22-11-2013 12:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 12:42 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Well, sure. That's a valid concern.

Draconian laws restricting free expression aren't the way to deal with it. And a perpetual nationalistic siege mentality is the opposite of healthy.


I can definitely get that sentiment. "Diversity is good" is pretty boilerplate, but true nonetheless.

And yet at the same time...

The drive for a culture comes in part from people's desire to fit together - to have things (experiences, works of art, traditions, etc) to share with each other; to have things in common. That's more possible on a global level now than ever. I can talk to just about anyone on the planet without getting up. In 48 hours I could be on their doorstep. We can talk about some of the same concerns, the same sports, the same entertainment, the same politics. We'd probably talk in English, yes, for various historical reasons, but we both may know and use other languages in other spheres (and if you want to talk to each other, you need a language in common). But the corollary to that is that I don't see a way to avoid having some local aspects subsumed into a global homogeneity. With people across the world more in touch with and more aware of each other than ever, they'll want (I'd go so far as to say they'll need) to have some common foundations.

And I can't call that a bad thing.

Is cultural diversity self-evidently good?

I think not. It is not without its negative aspects - 'us' vs. 'them' divisiveness.

Beer halls are good, believe me. Tongue

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