See-there must be a god!
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08-09-2010, 08:57 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2010 09:02 PM by Dave005.)
See-there must be a god!
Here I go again on another issue. Over the weekend a bunch of old friends got together. Everyone knows there are three athiests in the group. Along came a butterfly. You guessed it-a person stated that something so unique has to be created by god!

Of course that was translated into my religion is correct and on and on. Once again-zero thinking. Connections made without evidence. Sorry-but this gets me. Do they look at the grim conditions part of humanity lives in? Not pretty. Horrors against children-god cares?

They know darn well I am an athiest and threw that out at me as evidence waiting for me to reply. Usually I do-this time I cooled it. What would have been a good response.

Thanks
P.S. Posted this under science as wonders in the universe are many times attributed to a god and not examined scientifically.
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08-09-2010, 09:03 PM
RE: See-there must be a god!
I think you made a good choice there. If they are being so intentionally inflammatory, then I doubt they would be able to have a nice and civil debate. An argument would have probably ruined the trip, or at least put a damper on it.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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09-09-2010, 02:02 AM
 
RE: See-there must be a god!
You know your friends better than we ... what you might have done differently would depend on your friends. If they have open minds and can engage in a civil, rational discussion, then there are many, many points that could be made to refute the argument that a beautiful, complex being like a butterfly establishes the existence of god.

I would ask:
Quote:You believe in your deity because of faith, right? If so, why do you need any evidence for the existence of your deity? Are you trying to convince me or yourselves? If you need convincing, your faith must be pretty weak! Your argument is not convincing to me because science already has an effective explanation for the existence of complex creatures - it's called evolution. Your supposed evidence - that your deity must have created this creature - offers no explanation at all.
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09-09-2010, 03:06 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2010 01:05 AM by No J..)
RE: See-there must be a god!
A new study from University of Michigan proves that misinformed people are more likely to believe lies than fact even when presented with overwhelming evidence that the lies are wrong.
__________________________________________________________________________
Some people you will never be able to convince. It is a human condition, probably brought about by evolution. It is related to the herding instinct. Your only chance is to take control of the herd and throw out the old leader. Mountain goats do this by butting heads, religious leaders do it by promising eternal life and bliss if you comply and pain, death and suffering if you don't. Unfortunately, being an atheist means that you can't promise them eternal life and bliss and you will have a very hard time convincing some of these people that the church cannot deliver what they promised.

You are probably like me and want to live in a sane world, but find too much insanity for comfort.
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09-09-2010, 06:33 AM
RE: See-there must be a god!
I'd like to offer an alternative view.

Next time find a heavy stick, bash him over the head with it 3 or 4 dozen times, stand on his broken body and ask "where is your God now?!".

If you're not up to that, then maybe do a metaphorical version of it and ask if pestilence, disease, famine, etc. are also proof of his good work? I find that many theists are unwilling to blame the bad stuff on God. That's all man, which raises some interesting contradictions when you think about it.

For example: if man can influence his environment to allow for all these other things simply by eating the apple, why is global warming such a taboo subject?

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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09-09-2010, 06:38 AM
RE: See-there must be a god!
Quote:That's all man, which raises some interesting contradictions when you think about it.

For example: if man can influence his environment to allow for all these other things simply by eating the apple, why is global warming such a taboo subject?

Not to mention that controversial topic known as the "germ theory". Tongue Did man's sin create life? I thought only God could do that?

"It does feel like something to be wrong; it feels like being right." -Kathryn Schulz
I am 100% certain that I am wrong about something I am certain about right now. Because even if everything I stand for turns out to be completely true, I was still wrong about being wrong.
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09-09-2010, 07:39 AM
 
RE: See-there must be a god!
(09-09-2010 06:33 AM)BnW Wrote:  I'd like to offer an alternative view.

Next time find a heavy stick, bash him over the head with it 3 or 4 dozen times, stand on his broken body and ask "where is your God now?!".

If you're not up to that, then maybe do a metaphorical version of it and ask if pestilence, disease, famine, etc. are also proof of his good work? I find that many theists are unwilling to blame the bad stuff on God. That's all man, which raises some interesting contradictions when you think about it.

For example: if man can influence his environment to allow for all these other things simply by eating the apple, why is global warming such a taboo subject?
This reminds me of football players pointing skyward when they score touchdowns. Why don't they point skyward when they're stopped for no gain, or fumble? God only gets credit for touchdowns, not the blame for fumbles, or dropped passes, or penalties. I'd really love to see an NFL player point skyward after a fumble - 'Don't blame me. God did it!!"
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09-09-2010, 09:35 AM
 
RE: See-there must be a god!
Tell them if God is the only entity capable of creating life than how do you explain this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/sc...132299.ece

Then, tell them if everything is God's will then if you beat the shit out of them right then and there then God must approve of it because he allowed it to happen. It was part of his plan. (Obviously don't if they really are your friends, or don't beat the shit out of anyone for that matter).
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09-09-2010, 02:08 PM
 
RE: See-there must be a god!
(09-09-2010 06:33 AM)BnW Wrote:  maybe do a metaphorical version of it and ask if pestilence, disease, famine, etc. are also proof of his good work? I find that many theists are unwilling to blame the bad stuff on God.
This reminds of monty pythons "all things dull and ugly song". It's classic.

On a serious note...When people say such ignorant things as this, I always ask them if they know anything about evolution. Usually they do not. If they say yes, I inquire, and always find what they think they know is completely wrong. Either way, I then lead the conversation into a mini-education on science and evolution and try to avoid the arguing and make it more educational. I try to convince them that unless they have a clear understanding of evolution and science then they won't ever be able to understand how something so seemingly unique has come into existence and they will always go back to the archaic, ignorant answer of "god did it."
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09-09-2010, 11:14 PM
RE: See-there must be a god!
(09-09-2010 09:35 AM)TruthAddict Wrote:  Tell them if God is the only entity capable of creating life than how do you explain this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/sc...132299.ece

Jesus returned to earth as a genetic scientist.Tongue
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