Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
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20-09-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(20-09-2016 10:38 AM)mrgr8avill Wrote:  I suppose my point was that the emphatic statement "there is no god (of any sort)" is every bit as much of a "belief" as "there is a god (of any sort)," as neither can be proven or dis-proven. I have no issue with someone pointing out the logical fallacies of some human-created system of worship ("you're wrong"), but that cannot be carried to "I'm right" without the same leap of faith taken by "believers." No one knows the truth, and until they do, fantasizing that the universe is empty is akin to a tribe of natives believing a helicopter of "from the Gods."

Mind you, fantasizing that the Universe is filled with a white-haired psychopath is no better. Point is NO ONE can say "I'm right" and call that fact/evidentiary/logic-based. "I'm right" is a belief (at this point in time, anyway). I find it hard to understand how some can state emphatically that they know "there is no god (of any sort)" and call that a logical/factual conclusion rather than a belief - the same sort of belief, in fact, that they find so illogical in those who "believe."

I could present to you a box, and say "Guess what is in this box?" and give you a clue and say " It's small, it has wings, it can sing." A logical answer would be "A bird." would you also think "It's a fairy?" You won't know until the box is opened but it could be a fairy right? Which is the logical answer? Since fairies haven't been proven to exist in any way, it would be logical using facts and life experience alone to say "A bird."

If a logical person refuses to believe fairies are real they can only say one thing "There has been no evidence presented to me that proves they exist." Technically there has been no definitive proof that they don't exist either, but the only honest position to take is that until the proof is asserted to them by the believer, they have no choice but to reject the claim.

They could say "Maybe fairies exist, maybe they don't." This is also correct but like others have pointed out there is an exact definition of what a fairy is but not what a God is, a fairy is just a small human with wings, sometimes magical, lives in the forest, etc. We have no clear description of any Gods, even if we did there is no proof and no logical sense to be discerned using their definition.

How can a believer of a God define their God in a way that makes that God undefinable, the very nature of the God exists outside of any reality we can experience, even if they "feel" their God, so what? A child can believe they "feel" their imaginary friend is with them, loves them, etc. does that make their friend real? They are real to them, but not real to us.

There is no tool or version of reality that proves this God without any doubt, so the only logical and honest position to take is, "Until this God is proven to exist, they simply don't exist." Unless they want to use another definition like "The universe is God." Well we know the universe exists but why should we ascribe intelligence or consciousness to the universe? Once again until that is proven, this God doesn't exist, as well as unicorns or fairies, etc.

Yes that is a belief, but it's a belief based on facts or the absence of facts while the belief in a God is based on absence of facts and faith which is an illogical basis for belief.

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20-09-2016, 12:54 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
The burden of roof lies with those making the claim. Believers make the claim.

Kindly do not try to pawn off your responsibility onto us.

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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20-09-2016, 05:11 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
Let's see if I can make me some logic.

Things that exist can be measured in some way either directly or through interactions they have with other things that exist.

A god is an imaginary concept without any defined attributes that can be measured.

Non existent concepts have no attributes than can be measured.

A god is a non existent concept.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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20-09-2016, 05:15 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(19-09-2016 11:40 PM)mrgr8avill Wrote:  First, "logic" has four states, and ONLY four states - On/On, On/Off, Off/On, and Off/Off. Translated to an argument, that can be said to mean Right/Right, Right/Wrong, Wrong/Right, or Wrong/Wrong. Any violation of those four conditions does not constitute logic.

That is simply wrong. I mean like wrong/wrong.

EDIT: Dammit. Chas beat me again.

#sigh
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20-09-2016, 09:03 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(20-09-2016 10:38 AM)mrgr8avill Wrote:  I suppose my point was that the emphatic statement "there is no god (of any sort)" is every bit as much of a "belief" as "there is a god (of any sort)," as neither can be proven or dis-proven.
Correct

Those that believe that god(s) exists, fail to provide evidence, they even fail to provide a coherent claim.

Those that believe that god doesn't exist, also fail to provide evidence, they even fail to recognise that they can't even come up with a coherent claim, as coming from them, this would constitute a strawman.

I'm ignostic. There isn't a claim sufficient enough (ATM) to evaluate. I recognise that I can't worry myself about whether a god does or doesn't exist until a sufficient claim is put forth. It's not my responsibility to form a coherent claim, I don't have enough straw. So in the meantime, I behave as if there is/are no god(s).
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22-09-2016, 07:36 AM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(20-09-2016 10:38 AM)mrgr8avill Wrote:  I suppose my point was that the emphatic statement "there is no god (of any sort)" is every bit as much of a "belief" as "there is a god (of any sort)," as neither can be proven or dis-proven. I have no issue with someone pointing out the logical fallacies of some human-created system of worship ("you're wrong"), but that cannot be carried to "I'm right" without the same leap of faith taken by "believers." No one knows the truth, and until they do, fantasizing that the universe is empty is akin to a tribe of natives believing a helicopter of "from the Gods."

Yes and no.
You are right that we (humans) cannot 100% say for sure that there is no God.
Atheism is just this though, a lack of belief in a God.

The issue is however that I cannot 100% say for certain in exactly 5 seconds I won't spontaneously combust. I might. I can't see the future. But the chance of me suddenly exploding are extremely remote. Infinitely remote to the point where they're not even worth considering. So while it's not 100% that I won't explode, we say it's "certain" or "I defiantly won't explode" and all this type of "100%" language.

This is what atheism is and why agnosticism is stupid.
The chance there is a God is so remotely stupidly small it's not considered worth ever thinking about. Agnostics want to acknowledge this small chance because they're dumbfucks. Atheists don't consider the likelihood of a God existing to be worth mentioning and so we use this "100%" type language, "atheist".


And if you want to argue that the chance of God is greater than infinitely small and worth talking about or believing in or whatever, than the burden of proof is on you to prove his existence. Which nobody has ever done. Because he doesn't exist.
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22-09-2016, 08:29 AM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(20-09-2016 10:38 AM)mrgr8avill Wrote:  I suppose my point was that the emphatic statement "there is no god (of any sort)" is every bit as much of a "belief" as "there is a god (of any sort)," as neither can be proven or dis-proven. I have no issue with someone pointing out the logical fallacies of some human-created system of worship ("you're wrong"), but that cannot be carried to "I'm right" without the same leap of faith taken by "believers." No one knows the truth, and until they do, fantasizing that the universe is empty is akin to a tribe of natives believing a helicopter of "from the Gods."

Mind you, fantasizing that the Universe is filled with a white-haired psychopath is no better. Point is NO ONE can say "I'm right" and call that fact/evidentiary/logic-based. "I'm right" is a belief (at this point in time, anyway). I find it hard to understand how some can state emphatically that they know "there is no god (of any sort)" and call that a logical/factual conclusion rather than a belief - the same sort of belief, in fact, that they find so illogical in those who "believe."

We can say, in reason, that there is no God because the idea of God negates logic by its assumption of subjectivism. So anyone who says that we can not know that there is no God does so in defiance of logic. So yeah, if you abandon logic, and defy the law of identity, then you can hold out for the possibility that there is a god out there somewhere, somehow.

Perhaps you don't understand how someone can claim with certainty that there is no God because you don't understand the objective method of knowledge and at least implicitly, subconsciously, you hold to the primacy of consciousness. Because you can imagine something it must be possible.

God, the God of all the major religions, is impossible in principle. It contradicts facts which we know to be true, which are incontestably true. That is how logic works, by maintaining the integrity of the hierarchy of knowledge from the self evident all the way up to the highest level of abstraction. To claim that gods could exist cuts the hierarchy off at its very root, it's connection to reality and commits one to a whole string of stolen concepts. There is no way, in reason, to claim that a God is possible.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-09-2016, 05:33 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
Let's try this mental exercise.

I'm going to pluck our solar system out of the universe and place it in an infinite region.
I'm going to place a god in this same infinite region.

Starting out in our solar system, this god knows everything about our solar system and has a finite amount of power to transmute the entire solar system into whatever he wants.

As this god expands out to infinity, our solar system grows smaller and smaller until every region of this infinity appears to be the same empty space.

The amount of power and knowledge this god has drops to zero because in an infinite empty space, there is nothing to know and nothing that you can affect.

Power and knowledge are only relevant in finite spaces.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-09-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 08:29 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  To claim that gods could exist cuts the hierarchy off at its very root, it's connection to reality and commits one to a whole string of stolen concepts. There is no way, in reason, to claim that a God is possible.
People that lack a belief in god as well as lacking a belief that there is no god, they don't claim that gods could exist and don't claim that god is possible. The above is a strawman and a non sequitur.


But anyway, we've had this argument before.
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22-09-2016, 07:25 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 07:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 08:29 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  To claim that gods could exist cuts the hierarchy off at its very root, it's connection to reality and commits one to a whole string of stolen concepts. There is no way, in reason, to claim that a God is possible.
People that lack a belief in god as well as lacking a belief that there is no god, they don't claim that gods could exist and don't claim that god is possible. The above is a strawman and a non sequitur.


But anyway, we've had this argument before.

Many that I've run into do. They say you can't rule it out. That's the same thing as saying it's possible.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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