Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-09-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 07:25 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Many that I've run into do. They say you can't rule it out. That's the same thing as saying it's possible.
No its not.

They also can't rule it in. Neither in nor out. Their position is "don't know"

Me, I'm ignostic. I'm waiting for a clear definition to be presented on what it is before jumping to any conclusion on whether it exists or not.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2016, 07:35 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 07:28 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 07:25 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Many that I've run into do. They say you can't rule it out. That's the same thing as saying it's possible.
No its not.

They also can't rule it in. Neither in nor out. Their position is "don't know"

Me, I'm ignostic. I'm waiting for a clear definition to be presented on what it is before jumping to any conclusion on whether it exists or not.

I can rule it out though which is why they can't rule it in. I agree with you that we don't need to refute any undeclared or undefined gods but there are plenty of god beliefs out there that do define "God" such that we can rule it out logically.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2016, 07:41 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 07:35 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I agree with you that we don't need to refute any undeclared or undefined gods but there are plenty of god beliefs out there that do define "God" such that we can rule it out logically.
Sure, if you think they have provided a sufficient definition and if you have found some logical contradiction.

I find, however that they haven't provided a sufficient definition. For example if you use the bible as your source for what the Christian god is, it seems the followers each have their own way of interpreting that source material. They each have their own undocumented definitions and they are willing to change their definitions as you go scurrying around down the various rabbit holes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2016, 08:16 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 07:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 07:35 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I agree with you that we don't need to refute any undeclared or undefined gods but there are plenty of god beliefs out there that do define "God" such that we can rule it out logically.
Sure, if you think they have provided a sufficient definition and if you have found some logical contradiction.

I find, however that they haven't provided a sufficient definition. For example if you use the bible as your source for what the Christian god is, it seems the followers each have their own way of interpreting that source material. They each have their own undocumented definitions and they are willing to change their definitions as you go scurrying around down the various rabbit holes.

That's true. Ask a hundred different theists and you'll get a hundred different gods each slightly different. That, for me is conclusive evidence that gods are imaginary. But all of the ones I've run across share certain essential attributes. They are all said to enjoy primacy over their objects and on those grounds alone there is enough to rule them all out.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2016, 08:22 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 08:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  They are all said to enjoy primacy over their objects and on those grounds alone there is enough to rule them all out.
I've never ever met any theist that thinks they can move or change something by using their mind alone. But perhaps we have met different people, different circles etc.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2016, 08:37 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 08:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 08:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  They are all said to enjoy primacy over their objects and on those grounds alone there is enough to rule them all out.
I've never ever met any theist that thinks they can move or change something by using their mind alone. But perhaps we have met different people, different circles etc.

I've never met one either that claimed this. I'm saying that all the gods so far I've run accross descriptions of do. And it is common for theists to try to escape by saying that theism does not claim that humans have primacy over the objects of consciousness. This does not absolve theism of subjectivism though. It simply moves the issue to who's consciousness has primacy. It also creates another logical problem in that it embraces a contradiction. It means they are claiming that the universe has two contradictory natures. So out of the frying pan and into the fire for them.

But it's not true that theism does not claim that Humans have primacy over the objects of consciousness because mathew 17:20 clearly says that we can command the mountain to move and it will move.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2016, 08:53 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 07:25 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 07:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  People that lack a belief in god as well as lacking a belief that there is no god, they don't claim that gods could exist and don't claim that god is possible. The above is a strawman and a non sequitur.


But anyway, we've had this argument before.

Many that I've run into do. They say you can't rule it out. That's the same thing as saying it's possible.

It's an additional meaning to the one meant by the phrase, "If God doesn't exist, everything is permitted" Since without a set meaning, any meaning of the core idea of deities might as well be permitted as apart of the idea... well we could take all possible thoughts upheld by various Pops type people and "spiritualists" as permitted ranges of whatever the basic concept could mean. Even in ways that make it irrelevant to anything different of it not existing.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2016, 09:12 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 08:37 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  But it's not true that theism does not claim that Humans have primacy over the objects of consciousness because mathew 17:20 clearly says that we can command the mountain to move and it will move.
Yeah, but as we both agreed, they interpret their bible differently from what it actually states.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2016, 10:19 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
If it's possible that a single god exists, then isn't it possible that two exist ?
If it's possible that more than one god exists, then isn't it possible that an infinite number of gods exist ?

Given that the universe is a highly stable place, it would seem unlikely that an infinite number of gods exist, all with different ideas about how things should happen.

If it's unlikely that an infinite number of gods exist, then its unlikely that a single god exists.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2016, 11:00 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(22-09-2016 09:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 08:37 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  But it's not true that theism does not claim that Humans have primacy over the objects of consciousness because mathew 17:20 clearly says that we can command the mountain to move and it will move.
Yeah, but as we both agreed, they interpret their bible differently from what it actually states.

Sure, but the fact that theism assumes metaphysical subjectivism is incontestable. There's no way to interpret it so that it does not violate the primacy of existence principle. Not without gutting theism. There goes creation ex nihilo. There goes miracles. There goes divine sovereignty. The bible or any other faith tradition need not claim that all consciousness has primacy in order to affirm subjectivism. If it claims that god created a single grain of sand by an act of conscious will then it assumes the primacy of consciousness. It just moves the issue to which consciousness does, while still affirming the primacy of consciousness. There is no escape for the theist from this issue, except to deny everything theism claims about its god. I actually watched as one theist refused to say that God created the universe in order to avoid this issue. I just don't know how one could go on being a theist after that.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: