Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
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24-09-2016, 07:10 AM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(23-09-2016 03:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-09-2016 06:13 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Its the most fundamental issue in philosophy. In the relationship between a conscious subject and its objects which has primacy.
Well, I don't understand it.

Well if you'd like to here is a more extensive treatment by Anton Thorn: http://www.oocities.org/athens/sparta/10...rimacy.htm


(23-09-2016 03:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-09-2016 06:13 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  When we look at the world we find, without exception, that consciousness does not have primacy.
Yes, with regards to the only consciousness that we know of. That isn't to say:
1. There are other types of consciousness that we don't know of.
2. That the mechanism of action for a god is via consciousness only.

Well when you can demonstrate such a consciousness that enjoys primacy over its objects you'll have refuted my argument but until then it stands unrefuted.

(23-09-2016 03:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-09-2016 06:13 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  We also know that consciousness is consciousness of something as opposed to nothing.
I guess this is in a way the Information issue.
If there was nothing, there there is no data, without data there is no information, without information there is no knowledge. So how can a god be all knowing without there being any existence.

Also there is the problem of time.
How can a god make a thought or a decision, how can a god choose to create existence before time exists?

Also there is the problem of observation.
How can an unobservable god observe things without impacting them, without collapsing the function waves. If it observes then it must be observable.

Also the problem of faith.
Why would you need faith? How is that a virtue? A person that will believe without seeing, well they will believe in anything, which is what we call gullible. Teachers in science don't award points for faith, they reward efforts to find evidence. I am not egotistical such that I will get angry if a person half way around the world don't believe in my existence.

There are so many issues, to the nonsensical idea of gods, and yet, we can't discount because no-one has provided a sufficient definition. Once they bring it, then and only then can we evaluate. Until then we can ignore their nonsensical incomplete ramblings.

All of those are extremely good points and any one of them could be used to develop an argument to refute theism, but I choose to focus on the most fundamental issue, and the one characteristic common to all god claims, because it precludes all arguments for theism.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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24-09-2016, 07:16 AM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(23-09-2016 03:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-09-2016 03:20 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Yeah. I looked the origins up. Never studied Rand before but Objectivism seems to be merely an assertion that materialism is true using standard arguments. I wouldn't call it a philosophy.

You didn't need to tell us that you hadn't studied Objectivism, that's obvious from what you say about it. Objecivism is not Materialism. How could it be when it recognizes the axiom of consciousness as one of its founding principles?

(23-09-2016 03:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  [quote='Grasshopper' pid='1064659' dateline='1474665613']
... and I don't know of any philosopher who takes her seriously.

I took a minor in philosophy and she never came up. And by never came up I mean there was nothing about her anywhere in the uni philosophy curriculum.

This is fine but not relevant. Nowhere does my argument depend on Objectivism being mentioned or taken seriously by philosophers or showing up in some philosophy curriculum in order to draw its conclusion.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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24-09-2016, 07:39 AM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2016 07:48 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(24-09-2016 07:16 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  You didn't need to tell us that you hadn't studied Objectivism, that's obvious from what you say about it. Objecivism is not Materialism. How could it be when it recognizes the axiom of consciousness as one of its founding principles?

There seems to be some debate about that among philosophers. Is Objectivism Merely a Disguised Materialism?

Checked Google Scholar for citations for Dolhenty to establish credibility.

(24-09-2016 07:16 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Nowhere does my argument ...

I don't even know what your argument is. I haven't read it. Not particularly interested in bothering to read it. I was responding to Grasshopper on the origins of some terms we hadn't heard before. ... So fuck off.

#sigh
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24-09-2016, 04:12 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(24-09-2016 07:10 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-09-2016 03:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yes, with regards to the only consciousness that we know of. That isn't to say:
1. There are other types of consciousness that we don't know of.
2. That the mechanism of action for a god is via consciousness only.

Well when you can demonstrate such a consciousness that enjoys primacy over its objects you'll have refuted my argument but until then it stands unrefuted.
That would be a "no black swan" argument which is a logical fallacy.
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24-09-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(24-09-2016 07:10 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Well if you'd like to here is a more extensive treatment by Anton Thorn: http://www.oocities.org/athens/sparta/10...rimacy.htm
Firstly, thanks for providing the link.

It was very, very long, and I didn't read most of it.
I'm just not convinced that this isn't just some constructed strawman.

1. Who makes a claim that a god is a consciousness only?
2. Who makes a claim that gods can interact with (create) existence by use of their consciousness only?
3. Who claims to know what a godly consciousness is, and hence what its boundaries are?

Who from the theists are arguing from the primacy of consciousness?
Do you have any links where a reputable theist discusses the difference between primacy of existence and primacy of consciousness and then goes about their way to state that their god' consciousness has primacy over existence?
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25-09-2016, 12:05 PM
RE: Seeking Help re: "Logic" and (Strong) Atheism
(24-09-2016 04:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(24-09-2016 07:10 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Well if you'd like to here is a more extensive treatment by Anton Thorn: http://www.oocities.org/athens/sparta/10...rimacy.htm
Firstly, thanks for providing the link.

It was very, very long, and I didn't read most of it.
I'm just not convinced that this isn't just some constructed strawman.

1. Who makes a claim that a god is a consciousness only?
2. Who makes a claim that gods can interact with (create) existence by use of their consciousness only?
3. Who claims to know what a godly consciousness is, and hence what its boundaries are?

Who from the theists are arguing from the primacy of consciousness?
Do you have any links where a reputable theist discusses the difference between primacy of existence and primacy of consciousness and then goes about their way to state that their god' consciousness has primacy over existence?

The only specific theism that I'm really familiar with is Roman Catholicism, and (to my understanding anyway) they make the first two claims and reject the third one. Rejecting the third one is extremely important. True Scotsman's argument hinges on forms of consciousness that we have experienced and know about. It seems arrogant to me to suppose that this is all there is. Sometimes reality turns out to be very different from what we have experienced and what our "common sense" tells us (witness relativity and quantum theory). We simply don't know what other forms of consciousness there are, or what they might be capable of. We cannot even be sure that some humans don't have "extrasensory" powers. Nobody has yet been able to conclusively demonstrate any such thing, but that's no guarantee that it doesn't exist.

People who claim certainty about ultimate questions amuse me.
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