Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
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20-05-2015, 05:27 AM
Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
The quotes are dramatically different, in fact the second quote is expressing a fundamental disagreement with the first.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-05-2015, 05:33 AM
Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
It's the difference, between claiming that if we didn't come around, some other species would have developed eventually with our level of intelligence, and reasoning abilities.

And disagreeing with this entirely, that this development most likely would not have happened, that it would be quite improbable to occur, even if we never showed up.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-05-2015, 05:55 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 05:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's the difference, between claiming that if we didn't come around, some other species would have developed eventually with our level of intelligence, and reasoning abilities.

And disagreeing with this entirely, that this development most likely would not have happened, that it would be quite improbable to occur, even if we never showed up.

And you're subjecting a WOULD in where there is actually a COULD is being used.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-05-2015, 06:12 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 05:55 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 05:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's the difference, between claiming that if we didn't come around, some other species would have developed eventually with our level of intelligence, and reasoning abilities.

And disagreeing with this entirely, that this development most likely would not have happened, that it would be quite improbable to occur, even if we never showed up.

And you're subjecting a WOULD in where there is actually a COULD is being used.

I'm not sure what distinction you're actually trying to make here?
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20-05-2015, 06:49 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 06:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 05:55 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And you're subjecting a WOULD in where there is actually a COULD is being used.

I'm not sure what distinction you're actually trying to make here?

That's the actual tone of what Coyne is saying, which is summed up by the evidence. That is COULD happen. That's not at any point a distinction with it being improbable.

You're setting up this Distinction existing because you're stating it as saying, It would happen yet in contrast it is improbable. That's not the actual idea.

He's saying we COULD almost be certain it would happen.. it COULD happen sooner or later. That's not in any way logically disagreeing from still saying it's improbable.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-05-2015, 06:54 AM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2015 06:58 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 06:49 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 06:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm not sure what distinction you're actually trying to make here?

That's the actual tone of what Coyne is saying, which is summed up by the evidence. That is COULD happen. That's not at any point a distinction with it being improbable.

You're setting up this Distinction existing because you're stating it as saying, It would happen yet in contrast it is improbable. That's not the actual idea.

He's saying we COULD almost be certain it would happen.. it COULD happen sooner or later. That's not in any way logically disagreeing from still saying it's improbable.

Which quote are you talking about? This one:

""But as life re-explored adaptive space, could we be certain that our niche would not be occupied? I would argue that we could be almost certain that it would be–that eventually evolution would produce an intelligent, self-aware, reflective creature endowed with a nervous system large enough to solve the very same questions we have, and capable of discovering the very process that produced it, the process of evolution…. Everything we know about evolution suggests that it could, sooner or later, get to that niche.”"


Are you saying you agree with this quote?
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20-05-2015, 07:00 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 06:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 06:49 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That's the actual tone of what Coyne is saying, which is summed up by the evidence. That is COULD happen. That's not at any point a distinction with it being improbable.

You're setting up this Distinction existing because you're stating it as saying, It would happen yet in contrast it is improbable. That's not the actual idea.

He's saying we COULD almost be certain it would happen.. it COULD happen sooner or later. That's not in any way logically disagreeing from still saying it's improbable.

Which quote are you talking about? This one:

""But as life re-explored adaptive space, could we be certain that our niche would not be occupied? I would argue that we could be almost certain that it would be–that eventually evolution would produce an intelligent, self-aware, reflective creature endowed with a nervous system large enough to solve the very same questions we have, and capable of discovering the very process that produced it, the process of evolution…. Everything we know about evolution suggests that it could, sooner or later, get to that niche.”"


Are you saying you agree with this quote?

I'm talking about it, yes, I agree with it. And in relation to the other quote; There isn't any disagreement there. To state all that, and to hold that hominids/intelligence is an improbable evolutionary situation.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-05-2015, 07:08 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 07:00 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 06:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Which quote are you talking about? This one:

""But as life re-explored adaptive space, could we be certain that our niche would not be occupied? I would argue that we could be almost certain that it would be–that eventually evolution would produce an intelligent, self-aware, reflective creature endowed with a nervous system large enough to solve the very same questions we have, and capable of discovering the very process that produced it, the process of evolution…. Everything we know about evolution suggests that it could, sooner or later, get to that niche.”"


Are you saying you agree with this quote?

I'm talking about it, yes, I agree with it. And in relation to the other quote; There isn't any disagreement there. To state all that, and to hold that hominids/intelligence is an improbable evolutionary situation.

That wasn't Coyne, that is an argument made by Kenneth Miller and Karl Giberson. I take responsibility for your confusion, because I didn't cite them (I had my reasons at the time).

Coyne's response is in the quote that followed, in which he has a fundamental disagreement with Miller, and Giberson's view. That, "In fact, there are good reasons for thinking that the evolution of humanoids was not only not inevitable, but was a priori improbable. " The point of Coyne's entire post, was to express a strong disagreement with this view.
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20-05-2015, 07:13 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 07:00 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I'm talking about it, yes, I agree with it. And in relation to the other quote; There isn't any disagreement there. To state all that, and to hold that hominids/intelligence is an improbable evolutionary situation.

That wasn't Coyne, that is an argument made by Kenneth Miller and Karl Giberson. I take responsibility for your confusion, because I didn't cite them (I had my reasons at the time).

Coyne's response is in the quote that followed, in which he has a fundamental disagreement with Miller, and Giberson's view. That, "In fact, there are good reasons for thinking that the evolution of humanoids was not only not inevitable, but was a priori improbable. " The point of Coyne's entire post, was to express a strong disagreement with this view.

Well then his response isn't an actual full disagreement of what they were saying.

They weren't saying the evolution of humanoids was inevitable or probable. They're saying the factors could lead that way, but those specific words (I don't know if there was more to the context of their points) weren't saying those things in a definitive way.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-05-2015, 07:22 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 07:13 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Well then his response isn't an actual full disagreement of what they were saying.

They weren't saying the evolution of humanoids was inevitable or probable. They're saying the factors could lead that way, but those specific words (I don't know if there was more to the context of their points) weren't saying those things in a definitive way.

No, it's a pretty full-on disagreements. It should also be disclosed that both Kenneth Miller, and Karl Giberson are theists.

But I'm not agreeing with them here, I'm siding with the Coyne, the atheist.
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