Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
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20-05-2015, 08:16 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 08:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 07:46 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Which is impossible to tell specifically and with certainty with the snitbit of no context you initially posted the quote with... so you find it funny, I find it funny how just either continually foolish or dishonest you truly are, and to what end?

I think the quotes fairly clear to me, and in fact quite reasonable, that even I as a theists have to side with Coyne more so than the theist.

Because you've already read with the sentence stated prior!

That's such an illogical claim, wow I'm starting to think it's just stupidity on your end. If you WANT people to make assumptions it's a reachable conclusion. That isn't a logical means of how you should express communication if you care for clarity and sensible understanding.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-05-2015, 08:18 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 07:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 07:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  *effect

Humans, by having intelligence, radically change the environment and the selection pressures.
It's possible that our presence might actually increase the chances for another intelligent species to evolve.

My point, however, is that there are no predetermined outcomes for evolution.

Except of course when complex eyes arise independently over 40 times. Given the existence of particular ecological niche, like the ones present in the cases of eyes developing, we could likely predict that a creature without sight, would likely develop eye-sight in his more distant lineage, because of his occupancy of that particular ecological niche.

That still does not make it predetermined.

Quote:
Quote:It's possible that our presence might actually increase the chances for another intelligent species to evolve.

Increased how? By natural selection, or did you mean by some form of artificial selection, like genetic engineering or something?

Who knows? I am contrasting human presence and absence and speculating whether it would make a difference.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-05-2015, 08:21 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 08:13 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Quoting an segment of an element. Where he Coyne does the exact sentence prior, make it clear he is talking about higher consciousness(Otherwise called intelligence) but then finding it so hilariously amusing that someone didn't pick up on that.

Yeah, that wasn't directly didn't pick that up because you put up a quote element where it's not specifically clear he is talking about intelligence or just humanoids in a form.

Uhm, I've quoted Coyne numerous times in the thread, and I've made it clear that point I'm arguing was in regards to human intelligence, or "higher consciousness" as you call it, a point made even clearer when some posters mentioned other intelligent animals. So your suggestion that I was hiding the fact that Coyne was talking about our level intelligence, is a joke, when this was basically what my point has revolved around the whole time.

In fact the quote I just posted from him, is one I quoted several post ago to you:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid784825
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20-05-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 08:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  That still does not make it predetermined.

Then what do you mean by predetermined? Like that some sort of goal, or intentional agent need to be involved?
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20-05-2015, 08:34 AM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2015 08:45 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 08:13 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Quoting an segment of an element. Where he Coyne does the exact sentence prior, make it clear he is talking about higher consciousness(Otherwise called intelligence) but then finding it so hilariously amusing that someone didn't pick up on that.

Yeah, that wasn't directly didn't pick that up because you put up a quote element where it's not specifically clear he is talking about intelligence or just humanoids in a form.

Uhm, I've quoted Coyne numerous times in the thread, and I've made it clear that point I'm arguing was in regards to human intelligence, or "higher consciousness" as you call it, a point made even clearer when some posters mentioned other intelligent animals. So your suggestion that I was hiding the fact that Coyne was talking about our level intelligence, is a joke, when this was basically what my point has revolved around the whole time.

In fact the quote I just posted from him, is one I quoted several post ago to you:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid784825

It doesn't matter exactly what you were talking about. I get that it makes clear sense if you think it out clearly by assuming your topic is consistent and forthcoming, but there isn't a logical reason you should expect someone to make assumptions of that nature. Chas responded on how you said the quotes were contradictions, Coyne's quote doesn't specify that topic. Because YOU were talking about it; doesn't mean we should assume the quote you selected of his was talking about that. THAT would be making an assertion, which is something that shouldn't be desired to do.

I'm not saying you're hiding it.. stop viewing things so premeditated and dliberate. It's merely withheld. The dishonesty is the acting like, ha you should of known. There are differences to the manners of perspectives in which things are viewed. Just don't ignore it or deny it if you want to be taken as honest.

If you had added hte single sentence prior, it would be undeniable. But instead it's not rationally justified to believe your quote choice was actually on that subject. You don't get magical benefit of the doubt, nobody should. that's how discussion should be to open it up. If you keep acting in denial, there's no reason to progress with you over and over to these extents on various threads.

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20-05-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 08:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 08:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  That still does not make it predetermined.

Then what do you mean by predetermined? Like that some sort of goal, or intentional agent need to be involved?

Yes, that's what predetermined means.

That eyes evolved multiple times on earth merely demonstrates that they can be very advantageous.

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20-05-2015, 08:48 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 08:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Then what do you mean by predetermined? Like that some sort of goal, or intentional agent need to be involved?

Yes, that's what predetermined means.

Ok.

Quote:That eyes evolved multiple times on earth merely demonstrates that they can be very advantageous.

So something being very advantageous increases the likelihood of it occurring multiple times? But isn't our level of intelligence also very advantageous? Wouldn't pretty much every species benefit from having it? Yet this hasn't led to it evolving numerous times.
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20-05-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 08:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, that's what predetermined means.

Ok.

Quote:That eyes evolved multiple times on earth merely demonstrates that they can be very advantageous.

So something being very advantageous increases the likelihood of it occurring multiple times? But isn't our level of intelligence also very advantageous? Wouldn't pretty much every species benefit from having it? Yet this hasn't led to it evolving numerous times.

You have to take into account the probability of something occurring. Just because something is advantageous doesn't increase the probability of it occurring, just the probability that it will persist once it has.

There are any number of things that would be advantageous but have simply never occurred.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-05-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 09:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  ...
There are any number of things that would be advantageous but have simply never occurred.

Ah! Does that explain why I can't fly?

All becomes clear.

Unsure

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20-05-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: Seeking more help vs Christian YouTuber
(20-05-2015 09:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  You have to take into account the probability of something occurring. Just because something is advantageous doesn't increase the probability of it occurring, just the probability that it will persist once it has.

So what increases the likelihood of eyes occurring independently in over 40 different species, as opposed to just being one-off, If it's not particularly eyes being advantageous?
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