Seeking the opinions of this forum.
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22-05-2013, 11:28 PM
Seeking the opinions of this forum.
Good day/evening to you and my thanks to those who are sharing their time and opinion(s). Thus far I disbelieve all those gods and religions which are evidently false. However I still think that the idea of spirituality or faith can not be wrong, as they are only ideas. It is what is done with an idea, the action put to it that makes it right or wrong.

My intent here is not to recruit, but to gain the opinions of the intellectual persons here upon these forums. (I think I took care of the grammar and spelling errors, if I missed any I apologize. No being is perfect, least of all me.)

With that said I submit the following for you to read and give your opinion(s) on.
Thank you again, Nahli.

The Faith Of The Scroll

Through
Hope
Enhance

Freedom
Aspiring to
Inspire
Thoughts
Helping an

Organized
Faith

Thoughtfully
Hold
Extraordinary

Stardust
Creativity
Reaching
Out to
Logic's
Liberty

Tag Line: The Faith Of The Scroll; Faith Intelligently Designed

Symbolism: The scroll and similar tools, were among the first devices used to carry knowledge from any one person to any other person capable of understanding the delivery method. Such tools as this aided greatly in the establishment of the modern world we inhabit. As the passing of knowledge encourages the advancement and betterment of the world the scroll is seen as an appropriate symbol of this faith. Further the action of scrolling in regards to the internet to avail the being of further information is seen as the greatest evolution of the 'scroll' so far.

Ideals
Faith May Only Be Asserted As Faith, Never Knowledge Or Truth
A Flexible Faith: Though it is only faith, faith must change over time to maintain it's relevance to the world, as well as those who hold it as important to them.
Logical Liberty: Faith must be secondary to Logic, Reason, Fact & Knowledge. This faith may not act in a way to limit Logic, Reason, Fact & Knowledge.
Ethical Eclesiasm: Any member of the Clergy of this faith found to be opposing the Ethics of this faith must be removed from this faith.
Total Equality: No facet of a Sentient, Rational, Creative Being's gender, orientation, physical status, mental status, religion, lack of religion or any other quality may be used as an excuse for negatively different treatment.
Limitless Thought: Though actions may be wrong and therefor limited, thoughts must not be.
Limitless Love: Love freely those that love you in kind.
Freedom In Expression: How so ever you choose to express yourself is as Divine as you are, so long as your actions cause no physical, financial or psychological harm.
Pursuit Of Knowledge & Experience: Knowledge and experience are the foundation of the wisdom to know if an action is right or wrong, seek them always.
Progress & The Betterment Of All Of Civilization
Sentient, Rational, Creative Beings Are To Be Held As Precious & Divine
Decry Blind Faith As Dishonest To All
Right Actions: Those actions which on the average a Rational, Creative Being would want enacted upon themselves.*
Wrong Actions: Those actions which on the average a Rational, Creative Being would not want enacted upon themselves.*
We Postulate Any God Only As Possible Not Fact
The Idea Of An Afterlife Is The Decision of Each Member
Members of this faith hold only faith, never belief and assert that our faith is only faith.
*Though there may be exceptions it is only through wisdom that we may come to know them.

Definitions
Belief: An acceptance that an unverifiable statement is true or that something exists without evidence.
Credo: A statement of the beliefs or aims that guide someone's action.
Creed: A system of Christian or other religious belief; a faith.
Equality: The state of being equal, esp. in status, rights, and opportunities.
Faith: An supposition that is not based on proof but accepted to be possible, even if only minutely so.
God: Any entity described as having an infinite or functionally infinite trait.
Knowledge: Information and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. What is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information.
Postulate: A thing suggested or assumed as possible for the basis of discussion.
Religion: Details of belief as taught or discussed.
Right: A moral, just or honest action.
Ritual: An action or set of actions repeated frequently for a specified purpose.
Truth: That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.
Wrong: An unjust, dishonest, or immoral action.

The postulation of a potential for the existence of a 'god'.
During an event likened unto a matter anti-matter annihilation event capable of engendering a universe this faith postulates that during said event there could be an instance where time (T) and space (S) both equal zero. At the point of T=0 time could be said to be both infinite and infinitesimal, the same could be said for the point where S=0 where space could be said to be both infinite and infinitesimal. This point could be said to be everything and nothing. A point of nothing could be seen also as a point of limitless potential. If potential is at a point limitless then anything could occur. It is only in the T=0, S=0 of this unsubstantiated point that a “god” could come to exist. With limitless potential accessible various infinite or functionally infinite traits could to be. However the infinite and the finite can not coexist, for the finite can not withstand the infinite. There for any god could not exist alongside the universe or that which is within it. It is therefor put forth by this faith that any god that sought to perform more right actions than wrong would give up its existence rather than obliterate all of existence, and the limitless number of sentient, rational, creative beings that could follow in the incarnation of the universe that would follow the T=0, S=0 point. Yes, this does mean that this faith asserts that any god that could have existed, is not currently existent and can not exist within the universe.

Ordinances (Rituals)
Challenging: The act of Challenging each member to provide rational reasons for following this Faith. To keep sharp the minds of those following in this Faith, members are encouraged to question themselves and each other as to their reasons for pursuing truth and prevent blind obedience. Any game of stories, riddles, word puzzles and the like are also welcome as they keep within the spirit of building a strong or agile mind. In this practice we also ensure mutual independence and free thought. We acknowledge that though independent we hold certain traits and opinions in common thus strengthening our sense of community and fellowship. Any and all members are encouraged to conduct a Challenging whenever they see fit.

The Working of the Mouth: In this act those of the Faith, through partaking of sustenance and sharing of information of common interest commemorate the idea that our wealth whether of knowledge or of material things (in this case food), should be shared. The spread of wealth, much like the spread of truth is counter to death and ignorance. Members should feel free to converse upon any topic as well as to freely wander among all topics relevant to them. Further any who show an interest should be welcomed to join and share in the wealth. Any form of gathering where both informed conversation and food are present, from a local pot-luck, to a group visit to a restaurant is an acceptable venue for this gathering. If possible The Working of the Mouth is encouraged to be held once a month.

The Principals Of Truth (T-POT)

What exists, exists; from this principle, all knowledge is built. It is the point from which life must be embraced. Thinking is a choice you must make. Wishes and whims are not facts neither are they a means to discover them. The process of reason is our only way of grasping the reality about us our primal human tool of survival. We may forgo thought and reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss that we refuse to see. Faith and feelings are part of you and enhance life's joys. However it is logic that is the mind's light. In rejecting reason, refusing to think, one embraces death.
Our history can teach us and our experiences prepare us for how the future might be. Our past can comfort us with beloved memories, and create a foundation of what has been accomplished. However only the future holds life. If we live only in the past we embrace what is dead. If we are to live life to the fullest, we must make each day a new experience. To be successful as rational, thinking beings, it is our intellect, not a blind devotion, or fear of what happened in the past, that should guide us.

Almost anyone will believe almost anything. People will believe a lie because they want it to be true, or because they're afraid it might be true. People can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool. Listen with your mind and your heart, but never be afraid to look beyond the words of others and find out for yourself.

No matter what a person says, you should watch that person's actions to be sure that they do not deceive you.

Kindness and good intentions can be an insidious path to destruction. Sometimes doing what seems right is wrong, and can cause harm. The only counter to it is knowledge, wisdom, vigilance, forethought, and understanding the situation. Even then, that is not always enough.

When you ignore the truth you betray all that you hold dear, all for the sake of a lie that is more convenient to you than reality.

Seek always the truth in life for yourself, do not simply believe what you are told without our own rational understanding and clarity in that truth. For without your own cause and reason you will find yourself clinging to empty promises and following the path of the blind. What you learn by seeking the truth, if used wisely, is the key to enjoying life to its fullest. Those who use the truth without wisdom however, only betray themselves.

Letting your emotions control your decisions may cause trouble for yourself and those around you.

To believe in a contradiction is to abandon all belief in the world around you and all the things there in. If you instead give up logic for any random imagining that strikes your fancy and suddenly assert that something is real simply because you wish it were none can trust the truth of your words or your mind.
Blind faith is the artifice of self-delusion, it is sleight of hand performed with words and emotions built upon any irrational notion that can be called up from impossible fantasy. Blind faith is the attempt to cause truth to surrender to whim. It is the effort of trying to give life to a lie by attempting to obfuscate the beauty of reality with the gossamer wings of empty wishes. Blind faith is the Elysium of fools, the ignorant, and the deluded, not of thinking, rational people. In reality, contradictions cannot exist. To grant them your belief you must abandon your prized possession: your rational mind. You put at stake in such a bargain your life, and in so doing lose what you wagered slowly. Day by day, lest you find your way to the light of logic.
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22-05-2013, 11:46 PM
RE: Seeking the opinions of this forum.
(22-05-2013 11:28 PM)Nahli Wrote:  It is only in the T=0, S=0 of this unsubstantiated point that a “god” could come to exist. With limitless potential accessible various infinite or functionally infinite traits could to be. However the infinite and the finite can not coexist, for the finite can not withstand the infinite. There for any god could not exist alongside the universe or that which is within it. It is therefor put forth by this faith that any god that sought to perform more right actions than wrong would give up its existence rather than obliterate all of existence, and the limitless number of sentient, rational, creative beings that could follow in the incarnation of the universe that would follow the T=0, S=0 point. Yes, this does mean that this faith asserts that any god that could have existed, is not currently existent and can not exist within the universe.

You make an awful lot of assertions here. As an atheist, I'd love to agree with your argument that only a deist god could exist, one that created the universe and then stopped interacting with it, but you didn't present any evidence for why a god would have to stop existing after creation. "The infinite and the finite can not coexist"??? Are the borders of the universe not infinite, containing finite-sized galaxies? Don't we have both infinite numbers and finite numbers within mathematics? I have no idea where you came up with such a conclusion because all you did was assert it as true. And I can't even follow your convoluted logic where "any god that... perform[s] more right actions than wrong" would lead to the "obliterat[ion] of all existence". Is this something you've observed from past universes that have been obliterated, or are you just making it up?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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23-05-2013, 02:30 AM
RE: Seeking the opinions of this forum.
(22-05-2013 11:46 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(22-05-2013 11:28 PM)Nahli Wrote:  It is only in the T=0, S=0 of this unsubstantiated point that a “god” could come to exist. With limitless potential accessible various infinite or functionally infinite traits could to be. However the infinite and the finite can not coexist, for the finite can not withstand the infinite. There for any god could not exist alongside the universe or that which is within it. It is therefor put forth by this faith that any god that sought to perform more right actions than wrong would give up its existence rather than obliterate all of existence, and the limitless number of sentient, rational, creative beings that could follow in the incarnation of the universe that would follow the T=0, S=0 point. Yes, this does mean that this faith asserts that any god that could have existed, is not currently existent and can not exist within the universe.

You make an awful lot of assertions here. As an atheist, I'd love to agree with your argument that only a deist god could exist, one that created the universe and then stopped interacting with it, but you didn't present any evidence for why a god would have to stop existing after creation. "The infinite and the finite can not coexist"??? Are the borders of the universe not infinite, containing finite-sized galaxies? Don't we have both infinite numbers and finite numbers within mathematics? I have no idea where you came up with such a conclusion because all you did was assert it as true. And I can't even follow your convoluted logic where "any god that... perform[s] more right actions than wrong" would lead to the "obliterat[ion] of all existence". Is this something you've observed from past universes that have been obliterated, or are you just making it up?

First off, thank you for your reply and opinion.

"The size of the Universe is unknown; it may be infinite." The actual borders of the universe are unknown, so the idea that they are infinite can not be asserted factually. To reference wikipedia again as you have, Infinity is not a real number, though it can be used in place of a number. These infinites are more conceptual than physical. How would you accurately measure a physical infinite? What I am writing about here (and I should have explained it better), is something more along the lines of the idea that a source of (for example) infinite and infinitely growing energy irregardless of type could not be in the presence of any matter without eventually annihilating it. This is especially true for any energy that will produce or attract photons or that deals with extremely high temperatures.

When you referenced my writing you did not quite quote me correctly. What I said was "It is therefor put forth by this faith that any god that sought to perform more right actions than wrong would give up its existence rather than obliterate all of existence, and the limitless number of sentient, rational, creative beings that could follow..." I am using essentially an "if, then" type of statement. If a god is "good" then it would not kill. If the existence of a "good" god endangered the existence of all other potential beings then said god would give up its one existence for the benefit of all to follow. Or. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Lastly your closing statement, "Is this something you've observed from past universes that have been obliterated, or are you just making it up?" To me this feels very similar to the question coached creationists ask when told the earth is billions of years old, ie "Were you there?", when it is obvious that such is not possible. However when you ask if I am "...just making it up?" I will gladly say yes. I am only putting forth an idea. Like any and all other faiths mine is made up by a (or many) living being(s), I just gladly admit that. I admit that because I admit that this faith is a faith. I make no attempt to assert that any faith could be true without factual supporting evidence.
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23-05-2013, 02:37 AM
RE: Seeking the opinions of this forum.
As previously stated in the Ideals of TFOTS, " A Flexible Faith: Though it is only faith, faith must change over time to maintain it's relevance to the world, as well as those who hold it as important to them." I will be revising sections of the original post, however so as to not risk dishonesty and to maintain the relevance of any post I will be date and time stamping each revision, while keeping the original information intact in the post.
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23-05-2013, 02:49 AM
RE: Seeking the opinions of this forum.
It seem I am quite mistaken, I thought posts to be editable. Oops. Well then here is my first revision, as I think I can better put across my intent.

Belief: An acceptance that an unverifiable statement is true or that something exists without evidence. (Former version)
Belief: Any idea or ideal put forth and asserted as true without factual supporting evidence.
Faith: An supposition that is not based on proof but accepted to be possible, even if only minutely so. (Former version)
Faith: Any idea or ideal put forth as possible but not true without factual supporting evidence.
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