Selective Evolution
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-05-2011, 04:56 PM
 
RE: Selective Evolution
(29-05-2011 04:09 PM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  @Cube
I never meant to imply you didn't know - sorry.
I just wanted to make sure that he got those concepts right.

@galgamesh. No worries. I hope I can impart these concepts correctly as well. I just feel the need to move with tact and not overwhelm them with concepts they arn't ready for yet.
Quote this message in a reply
31-05-2011, 10:26 PM
RE: Selective Evolution
(29-05-2011 06:22 AM)Cube Wrote:  @ Daemonowner: Thank you. I was going to segway from how bacteria evolve to resist some of what we throw at it, to us becoming resistant and see what they think about that. I'll do it next time it comes around.
That reminds me though. I brought up natural selection. One of the guys actually said something along the lines of 'If we were born of natural selection, then we would still be living in caves because its all survival of the fittest and we would be killing off the weaker people.'
I know that I shouldn't have any reason to be amazed, but its just hard not to stop and blink sometimes.
I tried to explain how natural selection and survival of the fittest works, but I'm doubtful he was open.

Survival of the fittest isn't a good way to describe it as it is so easy for people, deliberate or not, to misinterpret it. Instead you should just explain it without using that phrase. Natural selection does not mean that we should kill the weaklings, although other species sabotage the others chances of survival and reproduction to benefit themselves, and they get by. But we are different. We are social. We would not survive and benefit everyone by being unempathetic and killing babies. That's just not how it works.
Natural selection is simply the idea that individuals better suited to their current environment are more likely to survive and reproduce. We are well suited to our environment because we are social and moral... and used tools...

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-06-2011, 03:21 AM
RE: Selective Evolution
Science works by developing theories and then figuring out ways to try to disprove the theory. If a theory is false, the tests will eliminate it. One difficulty with the chimp/man relationship theory was that man and chimps have a different number of chromosome pairs. Chimps have an extra set. If the theory of our relationship was going to be kept alive somebody would have to find and prove an explanation. A comparison of our chromosomes was undertaken and it was found that our chromosome number 2 is the same as a pair of chromosomes in chimps (now referred to as chromosomes 2p and 2q). They had fused at some point after the split. Chimps, gorilla, orangutans all have 2q and 2p chromosomes. Humans alone have chromosome 2 which has telomeres in the center (centromeres now) that match the telomeres on the ends of the two ape chromosomes.





http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

Share that with your co-workers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-06-2011, 09:12 PM
RE: Selective Evolution
(28-05-2011 11:20 PM)Cube Wrote:  Ive been probing the people I work with about their ideas. At least one guy knows I'm an atheist. He is pretty tolerant actually[a creationist as far as I am aware]. I feel somewhat like the guy who keeps bringing things up, but I feel this situation is too valuable a personal experiment to let go to waste.

Anyway. The subject of evolution came up today. After we waded through the whole 'coming from monkeys' bit and I threw in some stuff about bacteria and vaccines, I got them to 'the point'. This seems to be the furthest I have been able to push a religious person thus far.

'Evolution works for everything else. Just not humans. God made us in his image.'

Has anyone else come to this wall? If so, how do you deal with it? A barrage of facts or a quoting of scripture to first show that the bible does not disallow evolution followed by careful prying at the cracks. Or have you found that it simply isn't worth the effort at this point?

If they agree with you that bacteria can evolve, then they must agree with you that single-celled organisms in general can evolve. Then, they must agree that single cells can evolve. You can then tell them that humans are made up of many, many cells and that it is not the "human" itself that evolves, but the individual cells that evolve, creating an overall change in the human over a long period of time. Perhaps you can see how that goes? Tongue

"Remember, my friend, that knowledge is stronger than memory, and we should not trust the weaker." - Dr. Van Helsing, Dracula
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-06-2011, 09:32 PM
 
RE: Selective Evolution
(02-06-2011 09:12 PM)SecularStudent Wrote:  If they agree with you that bacteria can evolve, then they must agree with you that single-celled organisms in general can evolve. Then, they must agree that single cells can evolve. You can then tell them that humans are made up of many, many cells and that it is not the "human" itself that evolves, but the individual cells that evolve, creating an overall change in the human over a long period of time. Perhaps you can see how that goes? Tongue

You made one fatal flaw. You assumed that they would agree that humans have to abide by the same basic biologic laws as everything else. I've brought it up again. They seem receptive, up until the point where people come into the picture.

Your point is good though!
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2011, 01:13 AM (This post was last modified: 06-06-2011 01:21 AM by Spectre.)
RE: Selective Evolution
(28-05-2011 11:20 PM)Cube Wrote:  Ive been probing the people I work with about their ideas. At least one guy knows I'm an atheist. He is pretty tolerant actually[a creationist as far as I am aware]. I feel somewhat like the guy who keeps bringing things up, but I feel this situation is too valuable a personal experiment to let go to waste.

Anyway. The subject of evolution came up today. After we waded through the whole 'coming from monkeys' bit and I threw in some stuff about bacteria and vaccines, I got them to 'the point'. This seems to be the furthest I have been able to push a religious person thus far.

'Evolution works for everything else. Just not humans. God made us in his image.'

Has anyone else come to this wall? If so, how do you deal with it? A barrage of facts or a quoting of scripture to first show that the bible does not disallow evolution followed by careful prying at the cracks. Or have you found that it simply isn't worth the effort at this point?
He is wrong in the first place. The Bible states that God created the original kinds of animals. Kind is a tricky word that I see a lot of my peers using to shift the goal posts in a debate when they are uninformed on the subject. There are different interpretations of "kind." From what I see in The Bible the word "kind" is used on a species, family, and genus level. This either means that genus is the farthest evolution can go, or that "kind" doesn't have any significant taxonomic meaning. Some say that "kind" means that animals are able to bring forth, but I disagree with this definition. I don't see anywhere in The Bible that limits evolution, The Bible only seems to disagree with common descent. If this is the case, arguing about changes in allele frequencies could be a waste of time.

I suggest that you point out that The Bible does not contradict evolution, even when including what others would call "macro evolution."(I hate that term by the way.) And if you read The Bible and come to the same conclusion that I do about the use of the word kind perhaps you can explain to him that evolution and The Bible is not in conflict at least in the change over time semantic of evolution.

As far as him saying that evolution works for everything but humans, I'd point to fossils that show humans changing over time. Of course, they are still human but it would at least show that humans do indeed evolve. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with evolution, common descent is where scripture comes into conflict from conventional origin theories, and in an argument between an informed creationist and evolutionist, that should be where the debate is.

Lastly, keep in mind that whether you are a Christian working with an atheist or an atheist working on a Christian, it is very hard to convert one person from one belief system to another. If you care enough about what your co. worker thinks, it may be a good idea to show him where he is wrong in scripture and also the evolution theory in general. Hope this helps you at least straighten some of the misconceptions out with him.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

http://www.answersforhope.org
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2011, 05:24 AM
 
RE: Selective Evolution
I bring it up now and then, to test the waters, but I dont really feel much of an interest there yet. Perhaps a reluctance to speak on it.

Something I have always found amusing is the statement that people were made in the image of god, but it clearly states in the bible that 'no man hath seen god.' I think it says 'no man hath seen the face of god and lived.' So really, people just like to assume he is a tall elderly white dude.
Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2011, 09:56 AM
RE: Selective Evolution
(06-06-2011 05:24 AM)Cube Wrote:  I bring it up now and then, to test the waters, but I dont really feel much of an interest there yet. Perhaps a reluctance to speak on it.

Something I have always found amusing is the statement that people were made in the image of god, but it clearly states in the bible that 'no man hath seen god.' I think it says 'no man hath seen the face of god and lived.' So really, people just like to assume he is a tall elderly white dude.
The Bible is inspired by God, if this is the case there really is no reason for the authors to see him. Just wanted to clear that up. I am wondering, have you read The Bible? I am aware that some atheists have read it.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

http://www.answersforhope.org
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-06-2011, 03:23 PM
 
RE: Selective Evolution
I have read parts of the bible. I have not read it in its entirety. I've read the parts of god's so called love for man and I've read his own Sins. Ive read various parables and studied them in 'sunday school' when I was younger. We covered the bible in 'vacation bible school' [Which I think I will make a thread on shortly]. I was raised Christian, I have the exposure.

I abandoned the bible quite a while before I abandoned the concept of god.
Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2011, 03:57 PM
RE: Selective Evolution
(06-06-2011 03:23 PM)Cube Wrote:  I have read parts of the bible. I have not read it in its entirety. I've read the parts of god's so called love for man and I've read his own Sins. Ive read various parables and studied them in 'sunday school' when I was younger. We covered the bible in 'vacation bible school' [Which I think I will make a thread on shortly]. I was raised Christian, I have the exposure.

I abandoned the bible quite a while before I abandoned the concept of god.
His own sins? I think the problem with a lot of people is that they don't think of what it might be like to be omnipotent.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

http://www.answersforhope.org
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: