Self-shaming to validate prayer or innocents to God.
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19-08-2014, 10:17 AM
Self-shaming to validate prayer or innocents to God.
One of the things I had learned from the Church of Christ was that good Christians ask God to forgive them before saying the rest of the prayer. I consider forcing yourself to forgive someone horrible before you've recovered to be worse.

Every Lords Supper would start and be based on the Christian being forgiven of evil doings. There was usually a prayer to close the worship service, and people sometimes prayed at home saying "forgive me" as well.

The Lord's supper ceremony is based on feeling ashamed of your sins. What if someone makes a mental quota for this? They do something a little naughty, and then go to church? Their evil little deed helps them avoid any confusion during the ceremony? I don't think this is very useful. On the other hand, this ceremony gives a perfect opportunity to put together how you are bad person despite you thinking otherwise.

We were to bow our heads and focus our attention on what God and Jesus wouldn't have liked us to do. If you had nothing bad to fill in the little quota in your head, you apparently hadn't realized what that bad thing is yet. This is what I assume we did the head bow and self-meditation part for.

The prayer used to put a close to the worship session usually had this line in it "Lord, help us forgive others as you have been forgiving to us." Unfortunately, all 'sins' are thrown under the same level. If you sinned and weren't forgiven yet, you risked going to hell.

It's amazing what one's mind misses or blocks out for faith though. Dodgy

After church is over, some Christians take this shaming prayer act home with them and use it when they feel the need to pray for something. Of course, I didn't take the time back then to work a certain scenario through my brain. Wouldn't this be "great" during those times that people claim prayer would get them through? Someone's daughter gets hit by a car, and they go to the hospital. The parents are worried and start praying that their daughter won't be taken to Heaven before they want her to be.

This is totally going to make them feel better in the long run, right? Well, what if that car was the parent's SUV and they rolled backward without knowing she was there?! (It does happen.) I have a hard time trying to understand how this kind of praying is going to help the parent pull through the ordeal. The fears they might have about family and friends hating them for it, the feelings of helplessness, etc. They get the great luck of going to church later and starting this self-shaming meditation all over again. They have to blame themselves for something, right?

I think this rolls right into the worst thing I have learned from church. If you don't forgive others, God won't forgive you. When I was a Christian in my home town, there was a girl who had been abused by her father. He had molested his kids, made them lick the floors of the house, and beat and strangled them. She went up before the congregation one day to have a man speak for her to thank God for giving her wonderful Christian parents who adopted her and her siblings, and then be forgiven for not forgiving her abusive father for years on end. She wanted to be forgiven for hating that horrible father who physically abused them. People in the congregation gave her a hug or two, and thought it was such a sweet thing.

Telling her that she has to forgive him by any means is pretty much piling it onto her back. You know? Blaming the victim in a way. Recently, I watched a video on YouTube that was talking about some person's vision of hell. It was a near death experience story. One part of it really pissed me off, and I had stopped watching it after that. I can't remember what it was titled. It said that some woman who had once been forced to leave an abusive spouse was in hell after growing old. She praised the Lord in hell, but God couldn't forgive her of her sin, because she didn't forgive her ex spouse before death. Naturally, I had clicked the dislike option and exited the page with disgust.
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19-08-2014, 10:34 AM
RE: Self-shaming to validate prayer or innocents to God.
(19-08-2014 10:17 AM)Lienda Bella Wrote:  One of the things I had learned from the Church of Christ was that good Christians ask God to forgive them before saying the rest of the prayer. I consider forcing yourself to forgive someone horrible before you've recovered to be worse.

Every Lords Supper would start and be based on the Christian being forgiven of evil doings. There was usually a prayer to close the worship service, and people sometimes prayed at home saying "forgive me" as well.

The Lord's supper ceremony is based on feeling ashamed of your sins. What if someone makes a mental quota for this? They do something a little naughty, and then go to church? Their evil little deed helps them avoid any confusion during the ceremony? I don't think this is very useful. On the other hand, this ceremony gives a perfect opportunity to put together how you are bad person despite you thinking otherwise.

We were to bow our heads and focus our attention on what God and Jesus wouldn't have liked us to do. If you had nothing bad to fill in the little quota in your head, you apparently hadn't realized what that bad thing is yet. This is what I assume we did the head bow and self-meditation part for.

The prayer used to put a close to the worship session usually had this line in it "Lord, help us forgive others as you have been forgiving to us." Unfortunately, all 'sins' are thrown under the same level. If you sinned and weren't forgiven yet, you risked going to hell.

It's amazing what one's mind misses or blocks out for faith though. Dodgy

After church is over, some Christians take this shaming prayer act home with them and use it when they feel the need to pray for something. Of course, I didn't take the time back then to work a certain scenario through my brain. Wouldn't this be "great" during those times that people claim prayer would get them through? Someone's daughter gets hit by a car, and they go to the hospital. The parents are worried and start praying that their daughter won't be taken to Heaven before they want her to be.

This is totally going to make them feel better in the long run, right? Well, what if that car was the parent's SUV and they rolled backward without knowing she was there?! (It does happen.) I have a hard time trying to understand how this kind of praying is going to help the parent pull through the ordeal. The fears they might have about family and friends hating them for it, the feelings of helplessness, etc. They get the great luck of going to church later and starting this self-shaming meditation all over again. They have to blame themselves for something, right?

I think this rolls right into the worst thing I have learned from church. If you don't forgive others, God won't forgive you. When I was a Christian in my home town, there was a girl who had been abused by her father. He had molested his kids, made them lick the floors of the house, and beat and strangled them. She went up before the congregation one day to have a man speak for her to thank God for giving her wonderful Christian parents who adopted her and her siblings, and then be forgiven for not forgiving her abusive father for years on end. She wanted to be forgiven for hating that horrible father who physically abused them. People in the congregation gave her a hug or two, and thought it was such a sweet thing.

Telling her that she has to forgive him by any means is pretty much piling it onto her back. You know? Blaming the victim in a way. Recently, I watched a video on YouTube that was talking about some person's vision of hell. It was a near death experience story. One part of it really pissed me off, and I had stopped watching it after that. I can't remember what it was titled. It said that some woman who had once been forced to leave an abusive spouse was in hell after growing old. She praised the Lord in hell, but God couldn't forgive her of her sin, because she didn't forgive her ex spouse before death. Naturally, I had clicked the dislike option and exited the page with disgust.

I ashamedly laughed a few times here Tongue because I know exactly what you mean.

From history we see that Sin was a lucrative capital gains opportunity for the Church; it is funny how a donation helps drag your damned soul out of the furnace, freeing you up to go strait back to the brothel until next Sunday. Yes, it doesn't help us to actually have discipline over our behaviour when we have an easier way.

I understand the sentiment of forgiving those who have done us wrong, you don't want to let their badness make you a jaded or angry person, because you will end up doing hurtful things in ways you may not realise, but I don't think that is a case for actually forgiving those terrible people, things become dangerous to you in that way, you may end up letting that person back into your life, or people like them, or not help people who are exposed to those kinds of people. So not forgiving is self-preservation, and that is both natural and vital, we just have to not allow those experiences to ruin our good heart and compassionate sensibilities.
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19-08-2014, 10:54 AM
RE: Self-shaming to validate prayer or innocents to God.
There is a Bible quote, not exactly sure how it goes but Jesus said something like "If you so much as look at a woman so to have a passion for her you have already committed adultery in your heart"

This would be insanity to a normal person, how can you control that? Well you cant, that is the point; being attracted to someone is a natural response which you cannot control, I think the Bible and a lot of religions know this, they call natural behaviours and premeditated behaviours Sin. So there is no escaping Sin, we live in a perpetual state of it.

But natural drives can be recognised and controlled before the escalate into hurtful behaviour, so I think that is the kind of thing Jesus was driving at when he said a bunch of crazy stuff that is impossible. Not to apologise for religious nut jobs, just saying I don't think they understand all that much.
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20-08-2014, 06:21 PM
RE: Self-shaming to validate prayer or innocents to God.
This whole guilt thing is one of the most horrendous aspects of Christianity. They have the perfect standard (Jesus) and no one can measure up, so you must constantly ask forgiveness every time you don't measure up.

You have to call BS on their psychologically manipulative game and remove yourself from it, that's the only way to win!

Once you gain distance from it, it becomes tragically obvious what a malicious trick it all was.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-08-2014, 03:50 PM
RE: Self-shaming to validate prayer or innocents to God.
Thanks for viewing it, all. I felt the need to bring it up. Smile (I can't think of any other replies either.)
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25-08-2014, 05:55 AM
RE: Self-shaming to validate prayer or innocents to God.
While reading, a few thoughts passed through my mind. Since I was raised Catholic, the prayer and asking for forgiveness reminded me of confession. You sit in a curtained little chamber and the father sits on the other side of the panel, usually you can't really see him but you can hear him. You will then say "Father please forgive me for I have sinned," to which he would reply 'please tell me of your sins' or something of that nature. During this thought, I also began to think, when you confess, or ask for forgiveness, when is it that you know that you have been forgiven so that you may enter the kingdom of heaven?

You mentioned too, which is something that frustrates me, that all the sins are thrown in the same pile and are to be seen as the same and to be forgiven. I call BS on that crap. There are levels of wrongness, if I stole a pencil from Bobby, someone who kills Susie, definitely different level and simply asking for forgiveness does not equal a free entrance in to those pearly gates.

Another thought that passed through, was that of course the connection of morality and the bible that many have places such a high value upon. The bible does not equate morality. As I continue on in life, this has become more of an issue for me as I do not believe or agree that the bible should be held as a compass for morality. Another subject I have been exploring more recently, the connection between the two. There is a lot of unwinding that we need to have done so that we can, as a society, can remove ourselves from the grips of religion.

They are no more valuable than the fairy tales and mother goose stories that I grew up with. It saddens me to hear of these individuals caught in abusive situations and turn to 'god' for help or to make them feel as though they need to be forgiven for not forgiving the abuser. I have seen that all too often in kids and young adults. I myself even went through that growing up. I thought I was doing something wrong when my step-mother was not happy or got upset about something. Long story short, it was her who has the issues, not me so much but caused issues that I have had to work through, starting with god and the bible, then moved on to paganism and the gods and goddesses, and then without all of the BS of religion especially Christianity.

Bit of a long ramble. What Christianity has and is doing to many people is giving them false hope, false truths, false guidance in a god that was honored many a years ago, that thinking doesn't mean it works now. We should not be ashamed of who we are, but helped to figure out who we can become.

I tend to ask random questions, sometime stupid ones, but I can almost guarantee I'm smarter for asking than not.
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