Selfishness
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11-03-2015, 06:56 AM
RE: Selfishness
(11-03-2015 06:55 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 06:42 AM)One Above All Wrote:  I think we can all agree that actions that screw other people over for the benefit of the self are selfish. These are a part of "all" actions. The others are the ones we're divided on: the ones that, while not harmful (possibly even helpful) to others, are still based on the benefit of the self, and not the benefit of others. This is why "an action" "suddenly" became "all actions". I believe it's made clear if you read the posts leading up to this discussion.

So, the outcome of one specific action being a "nice coincidence " means the outcome of every other possible action is the same coincidence?

For the love of all that's unholy...
Do you agree that actions that benefit the self at the expense of others are selfish? Yes or no?

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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11-03-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Selfishness
(11-03-2015 06:56 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 06:55 AM)pablo Wrote:  So, the outcome of one specific action being a "nice coincidence " means the outcome of every other possible action is the same coincidence?

For the love of all that's unholy...
Do you agree that actions that benefit the self at the expense of others are selfish? Yes or no?

Yes, but that is not always the case.
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11-03-2015, 07:07 AM
RE: Selfishness
(11-03-2015 07:06 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 06:56 AM)One Above All Wrote:  Do you agree that actions that benefit the self at the expense of others are selfish? Yes or no?

Yes

(Snipped irrelevant bits from your post and mine)
Good. Now, do you agree that there are two types of actions: those that benefit oneself at the expense of others and those that do not benefit oneself at the expense of others? To be clear: the latter type is a type that does not necessarily either benefit oneself or harm others.

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Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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11-03-2015, 07:13 AM
RE: Selfishness
(11-03-2015 07:07 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 07:06 AM)pablo Wrote:  Yes

(Snipped irrelevant bits from your post and mine)
Good. Now, do you agree that there are two types of actions: those that benefit oneself at the expense of others and those that do not benefit oneself at the expense of others? To be clear: the latter type is a type that does not necessarily either benefit oneself or harm others.

And those that benefit both self, and others unintentionally.
A nice coincidence.
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11-03-2015, 07:22 AM
RE: Selfishness
(11-03-2015 07:13 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 07:07 AM)One Above All Wrote:  (Snipped irrelevant bits from your post and mine)
Good. Now, do you agree that there are two types of actions: those that benefit oneself at the expense of others and those that do not benefit oneself at the expense of others? To be clear: the latter type is a type that does not necessarily either benefit oneself or harm others.

And those that benefit both self, and others unintentionally.
A nice coincidence.

OK, this one was definitely my fault. Let me try to explain it properly:
The second type of action is one that does not necessarily harm oneself and harm others, or benefit oneself and benefit others, or harm oneself and benefit others. Do you agree that these and actions that benefit oneself and harm others are the only possible actions?

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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11-03-2015, 07:40 AM
RE: Selfishness
(11-03-2015 07:22 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 07:13 AM)pablo Wrote:  And those that benefit both self, and others unintentionally.
A nice coincidence.

OK, this one was definitely my fault. Let me try to explain it properly:
The second type of action is one that does not necessarily harm oneself and harm others, or benefit oneself and benefit others, or harm oneself and benefit others. Do you agree that these and actions that benefit oneself and harm others are the only possible actions?

You're leaving out the unintended benefit to others while still getting the intended benefit to self. This is a nice coincidence.
This is the point I'm trying to make.
Self (Intended) Others (Unintended)
Neutral. Neutral. No nice coincidence
Positive. Negative No nice coincidence
Positive. Positive. Nice coincidence
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11-03-2015, 07:47 AM
RE: Selfishness
So what you're saying is that if I try to shoot someone to take their money, but wind up stopping a robbery, it's a "nice coincidence", and I'm not selfish? You're saying that an action taken to benefit oneself at the expense of others is not selfish if the end-result is a benefit to others? If so, we have a much more fundamental disagreement: that motive doesn't matter when classifying something as selfish or selfless.

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Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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11-03-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: Selfishness
(11-03-2015 07:47 AM)One Above All Wrote:  So what you're saying is that if I try to shoot someone to take their money, but wind up stopping a robbery, it's a "nice coincidence", and I'm not selfish? You're saying that an action taken to benefit oneself at the expense of others is not selfish if the end-result is a benefit to others? If so, we have a much more fundamental disagreement: that motive doesn't matter when classifying something as selfish or selfless.

I said nothing about not being selfish.
I think you know I'm not trying to justify absurd scenarios like you described.
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11-03-2015, 07:58 AM
RE: Selfishness
(11-03-2015 06:02 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Selfishness isn't doing something for your self.

Selfishness is doing something for your self at the expense of others.

I don't think it is realistic to deny that we compete as a species, that part will not go away. Our empathy is also part of our species. Where we go wrong is not recognizing that we far to much extend that empathy to what is local to us, our social norms.

I hate loaded cliches like "Altruism" and "honor" and "Sacrifice". They all sound pretty, but really don't have the intent people want them to have. Those really are nothing more than justifications to protect the tribe.

I have said this before in other threads, Dawkins places alot of blame on Plato for our chase of utopias in all aspects of society. Plato had the idea that if you merely thought about something long enough you could find it's "essence". This unfortunately was nothing more than looking for excuses to stop when you thought you found that "perfect thing". This idea since infected everything in human thought. It didn't have the benefit of control groups and testing and falsification.

Plato was popular for the idea of questioning, for things like his Apology and the Allegory Of The Cave. But is really nothing more than promoting challenging authority, which isn't by itself a bad thing. But is also why the Jesus motif is popular as well. Our empathy for the weaker in our species makes the idea of beating a bully a popular idea. But none of these stories were really about quality control.

So everything from politics and religion since Plato has been a chase for that utopia. The wrong kind of questioning. You don't question to justify, you question with with controls to insure quality of data.

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11-03-2015, 11:14 AM
RE: Selfishness
(11-03-2015 06:19 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 06:02 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Selfishness isn't doing something for your self.

Selfishness is doing something for your self at the expense of others.

And what would you call an action that, while harmless (or even helpful) to others, is done primarily for the benefit of the self?
I would call that masturbating Drinking Beverage

(30-03-2015 08:47 PM)Colourcraze Wrote:  IT'S THE HOLY GHOST oooOOOOOOOOOOooooooo
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