Sensus Divinitatis?
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15-11-2013, 01:19 PM
RE: Sensus Divinitatis?
Oh, gee, just what we needed. Mutual Christian mental masturbation. Dodgy

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15-11-2013, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2013 02:40 PM by viole.)
RE: Sensus Divinitatis?
(15-11-2013 10:58 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  My reply was,

"The Atheists do find what they would call objective (or subjective yet practical) foundations for their morality in positivist ethics of reciprocity. They will literally say that murder is wrong because it has economic repercussions to them and other stupid “stuff” like that, whereas we say “love your neighbor, end of story”.

mmmh. Does that work also if you are a male and your neighbor is the wife of another neighbor? LOL. Why not, if she is also a neighbor?

Incidentally, the commandment is "love your neighbor as yourself"; which is kind of self centered; what about "love your neighbor as your kids"? Do you think we could implement that?

Quote:Where their ethical foundation is shaky is this—we can demonstrate from other cultures who believed murder and cannibalism to be “good” that the atheists are continuing to be subjective and counter-intuitive to Darwinism (as well as unconsciously fulfilling the last days prophecy about people who have a form of godliness without actually God).

These last days prophecies have been fulfilled since their inception. You are waiting for a bus that will never come, I am afraid. Big Grin

Quote:God can only by definition do what is morally right if He chooses to do right.
Tautology. I also by definition can do right, if I choose to do right, independently of what "right" means. That applies to everything.

Is that what theology is about? Tautologies? LOL

Quote: Since He is an omnipotent being, He just doesn’t want to do wrong but could do wrong if he wanted to—since He is omnipotent.

LOL. He is also omnibenevolent, apparently. So, I could say that He just can't do wrong even if He wanted, for being omnibenevolent. You seem to indicate that the two attributes are mutually exclusive.

Quote:Consider His statement on abortion—“such a thing never entered my mind”—He foreknew before the world was made that sinners would abort children—it entered His mind but His nature is good so it’s “not like Him” to do or even think about doing something wrong.

Many children are aborted naturally (miscarriages), i.e. God is pro (His) choice. So, what is the problem, considering that we are in His image, allegedly?

Quote:But when Jesus came to Earth, since He knew He would be killed, He did something that was not good, “To give punishment to the upright is not good, or to give blows to the noble for their righteousness…” (Proverbs 17:26) so that something much better would be resultant. An analogy is that we can break God’s law and bear false witness if we’re saving someone’s life by doing so. Another analogy would be the person who sacrifices their own child to save all the people on an airplane and so on.

Not only did Jesus know that He will die. He also knew that after the Weekend He will be back, if we take the mythology at face value. The person who sacrifices their own child or themselves to save all other people, might not necessarily believe that. I am not sure who is more worthy of respect.

Quote:I agree God’s character and person is immutable but He did something that is generally bad or wrong—punish an innocent Jesus—to save a whole world.

I have no respect for anyone who punishes an innocent person, especially an almighty being who does not have enough imagination to find a better way. I mean what kind of moral system are you guys putting up here? And we should derive our morals from this entity? Thank you, but no, thanks.

Incidentally, if God is immutable, should we still stone people who eat shrimps?

Quote:We don’t need an imagined sensus divinitatis, since the Bible states plainly in Romans and elsewhere that people have a conscience toward God—that is—they know what sin is, that God will judge them, etc.

Oh yeah. If the Bible says so, it must be true, Big Grin

Ciao

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15-11-2013, 03:26 PM
RE: Sensus Divinitatis?
(15-11-2013 12:20 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(15-11-2013 12:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Perhaps right in a limited sense in the context of you on this forum who need extra "god" help and therefore I'm always yapping about the One.

I have a very strong will and strong desires. I pursue multiple hobbies. I travel, teach and do an astonishing number of things (astonishing from my perspective) where I'm far more flying solo than godward.

But God is the ultimate power, ultimate mind, and ultimate love, and mediatations upon such yield some pretty sweet fruit!

I have no doubt that your life yields some sweet fruit. But at the end of the day, it is you putting forth the effort and living your life. No god required.

Two issues:

*The mental effort to ratiocinate what I see and what I think has turned out as confirmation. Something like, say, 1,000 times (it's likely more often but I'll say merely weekly for 20 years since conversion) I've found the answers to real-life issues and current events and questions and contradictions and lofty thoughts and ideals and etc. in the scriptures. I don't call 1,000 of 1,000 hits a confirmatory bias, I call it confirmation.

*You're right if Christ did not resurrect or exist. He has resurrected and I have a leader and savior and not merely doctrines or ideas.
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15-11-2013, 03:28 PM
RE: Sensus Divinitatis?
(15-11-2013 12:22 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(15-11-2013 12:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Perhaps right in a limited sense in the context of you on this forum who need extra "god" help and therefore I'm always yapping about the One.

I have a very strong will and strong desires. I pursue multiple hobbies. I travel, teach and do an astonishing number of things (astonishing from my perspective) where I'm far more flying solo than godward.

But God is the ultimate power, ultimate mind, and ultimate love, and mediatations upon such yield some pretty sweet fruit!


Those poor children/people.

You don't need god to have morality, morality exists independently in various cultures and is always tailored to the environment (even among the religious, if the land and culture requires a different morality a new sect or a revision will be applied). Godless animals have a sense of morality. Moral tendencies are an evolutionary stable strategy for many social creatures. Study game theory. No god necessary.

I don't need your god for creation, I don't need him for salvation, I don't need him for morality... I don't need him for anything.

As long as we're both clear on the implication--that God will someday say to you, "I don't need you either. Goodbye to you forever."

Yet I urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain. You do need Him to live well, and to die better.
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15-11-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: Sensus Divinitatis?
(15-11-2013 12:49 PM)DLJ Wrote:  PJ,

1. Interesting discussion and you are both getting somewhere... but need to drop the supernatural element to make real progress.

2. Your friend would do better if he/she didn't try to second guess what an atheist thinks.

3. Backward engineering.

4. Euthyphro.

Keep trying.

Thumbsup

I'm more of an Aristotelian and objectivist myself. Sorry. Did read a lot of Plato in my ancient Greek courses, though.
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15-11-2013, 03:31 PM
RE: Sensus Divinitatis?
(15-11-2013 01:17 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I thought this thread is about me.



I misread the title as Sexual Deviants.


Meh...

PJ, did you take some kind of a course in self delusion? This much of it surely can't come naturally.

Thanks, that really added to the rarified air of intellectualism that dominates this forum. That really contributed substance and reasoning to the argumentation. That really was a waste of time and typing on your part.

Thanks again.
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15-11-2013, 03:32 PM
RE: Sensus Divinitatis?
(15-11-2013 01:19 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Oh, gee, just what we needed. Mutual Christian mental masturbation. Dodgy

Why is it ALWAYS masturbation, sex and foul language here from the "intellectuals"? Oh, I know why. Because atheists are deviant with seared consciences.

Please try to confine yourself to intelligent discourse. You can do it, you know (no sex pun intended). Laughat
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15-11-2013, 03:41 PM
RE: Sensus Divinitatis?
(15-11-2013 03:26 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(15-11-2013 12:20 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I have no doubt that your life yields some sweet fruit. But at the end of the day, it is you putting forth the effort and living your life. No god required.

Two issues:

*The mental effort to ratiocinate what I see and what I think has turned out as confirmation. Something like, say, 1,000 times (it's likely more often but I'll say merely weekly for 20 years since conversion) I've found the answers to real-life issues and current events and questions and contradictions and lofty thoughts and ideals and etc. in the scriptures. I don't call 1,000 of 1,000 hits a confirmatory bias, I call it confirmation.

*You're right if Christ did not resurrect or exist. He has resurrected and I have a leader and savior and not merely doctrines or ideas.

I know exactly where you're coming from, friend. I used to validate everything through a certain lense myself. Then I had the courage to remove that lense and everything became so much clearer. It's amazing that in the age of information so many people are doing the same thing.

Could that be the work of satan?

Perhaps.

Most likely it's just reality hitting humanity square in the eyes. Nowadays you have to try pretty hard to hold on to what's left of the concept of yaweh. You are doing a bang up job though. Thumbsup

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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15-11-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Sensus Divinitatis?
(15-11-2013 03:31 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(15-11-2013 01:17 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I thought this thread is about me.



I misread the title as Sexual Deviants.


Meh...

PJ, did you take some kind of a course in self delusion? This much of it surely can't come naturally.

Thanks, that really added to the rarified air of intellectualism that dominates this forum. That really contributed substance and reasoning to the argumentation. That really was a waste of time and typing on your part.

Thanks again.

Actually, contributing substance and reasoning is waste of time when argumentation with you is in question.

And you are welcome.

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