Separation of Church and State
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27-09-2016, 08:23 PM
Separation of Church and State
Okay I have two issues right now going on here where I live in Kentucky.

Apparently tomorrow there will be a day of prayer at our school during school I'm pretty sure. Any student who wants to participate in it outside can. Apparently Senator Matt Bevins issued it because of teenage peer pressure, drugs, violence, gangs, etc. My question is if that's even legal? I'm pretty sure it's not. When they announced it nobody cared. It's so much of a custom here that people don't think of separation of church and state. What should I do about this? Should I do anything at all? I'm not really out of the closet to the public, but I've told a few friends and a few Christian adults just think I'm "confused".

Second is FCA( Fellowship of Christian Athletes) back when I was a Christian I helped get it started in my school, but now I don't want to be a part of it. I told the leader I didn't want to so we talked about it. I tried to tell him all these issues I had with the bible, but somehow he still thinks I'm a Christian who is strange in a good way for my age. I didn't go to one meeting and then my dad said I needed to go back to be in a "good" atmosphere. I just hate sitting through all of that bull crap especially when we have to start doing church like events for FCA at my freaking school. I mean I wish the ACLU would come in and stop this nonsense. What should I do? Thank you all!

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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27-09-2016, 09:17 PM
RE: Separation of Church and State
Wishing for an ACLU miracle is no better than prayer.

But I suspect that they might have a phone number.

Yes

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27-09-2016, 09:50 PM
RE: Separation of Church and State
I think the attorneys at the Freedom From Religion Foundation handle most of those school-prayer cases; they'll be able to tell you what to do, what the legal basis is for your actions, and/or if they can help.

https://ffrf.org/

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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28-09-2016, 05:01 AM
RE: Separation of Church and State
(27-09-2016 09:17 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Wishing for an ACLU miracle is no better than prayer.

But I suspect that they might have a phone number.

Yes

ThanksSmile

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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28-09-2016, 05:02 AM (This post was last modified: 28-09-2016 05:19 AM by goldenarm.)
RE: Separation of Church and State
(27-09-2016 09:50 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I think the attorneys at the Freedom From Religion Foundation handle most of those school-prayer cases; they'll be able to tell you what to do, what the legal basis is for your actions, and/or if they can help.

https://ffrf.org/

Ok great! Thank you. No one will find out that I was the one who reported though will they?

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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28-09-2016, 07:01 AM
RE: Separation of Church and State
(28-09-2016 05:02 AM)goldenarm Wrote:  
(27-09-2016 09:50 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I think the attorneys at the Freedom From Religion Foundation handle most of those school-prayer cases; they'll be able to tell you what to do, what the legal basis is for your actions, and/or if they can help.

https://ffrf.org/

Ok great! Thank you. No one will find out that I was the one who reported though will they?

Well, the FFRF won't report you, that's for sure. But if it comes down to a lawsuit, then you'll likely have to be the named person on the suit-- the FFRF can request that a "John Doe / Jane Roe" anonymous suit be filed, to protect the complainant, but frankly the judges tend to be biased in those shitty little places that pull this type of stuff, so the judges have often denied the request and there has been social backlash against the atheist doing the filing. So you'll have to cross that bridge when you come to it.

However, the FFRF doesn't start with a lawsuit; they start with a letter of complaint, and often the school will terminate what they know to be an unlawful activity, rather than face a lo$er of a court case. They always lose... it's just a matter of whether or not they try to pressure the complainant into shutting up, with judicial complicity.

Some judges are not bigots, and will honor the request. Just don't count on it.

At least call the FFRF... they'll be much better able to advise you on this stuff than anyone here could.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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28-09-2016, 07:05 AM (This post was last modified: 28-09-2016 07:08 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Separation of Church and State
(28-09-2016 07:01 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 05:02 AM)goldenarm Wrote:  Ok great! Thank you. No one will find out that I was the one who reported though will they?

Well, the FFRF won't report you, that's for sure. But if it comes down to a lawsuit, then you'll likely have to be the named person on the suit

I think the only one with standing here is his son.

(28-09-2016 07:01 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  However, the FFRF doesn't start with a lawsuit; they start with a letter of complaint, and often the school will terminate what they know to be an unlawful activity, rather than face a lo$er of a court case.

I'm not sure it's illegal as long as they hold the prayer session off campus. I'm not even sure it's illegal if they do it on campus as long as the allow the kids to pray however they want to include not praying at all. If the Muslim kids want to throw down their prayer rugs in the direction of mecca they can do so.

But I'm just pulling this out of my ass.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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28-09-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Separation of Church and State
(28-09-2016 07:05 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 07:01 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Well, the FFRF won't report you, that's for sure. But if it comes down to a lawsuit, then you'll likely have to be the named person on the suit

I think the only one with standing here is his son.

(28-09-2016 07:01 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  However, the FFRF doesn't start with a lawsuit; they start with a letter of complaint, and often the school will terminate what they know to be an unlawful activity, rather than face a lo$er of a court case.

I'm not sure it's illegal as long as they hold the prayer session off campus. I'm not even sure it's illegal if they do it on campus as long as the allow the kids to pray however they want to include not praying at all. If the Muslim kids want to throw down their prayer rugs in the direction of mecca they can do so.

But I'm just pulling this out of my ass.

I think you're right, as far as the off-campus stuff goes, but there are some potential issues with the way it's being pitched to the students and the way the school is used as pressure-grounds. That's why these assholes target schools so often; they know it's rife with peer pressure and carries the "official government/cultural stamp of approval" message to the kids they're trying to influence. It's why courts have actually been pretty good about recognizing the pernicious influence of such activities.

It's why I advised he call the FFRF to ask, so they could get the salient details and see if there's a violation that's actionable.

And yes, the son would be the one with standing, but as a minor I believe his parents share the constitutional damage required for standing, and/or can file on his behalf.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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28-09-2016, 07:28 AM
RE: Separation of Church and State
(28-09-2016 07:17 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 07:05 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I think the only one with standing here is his son.


I'm not sure it's illegal as long as they hold the prayer session off campus. I'm not even sure it's illegal if they do it on campus as long as the allow the kids to pray however they want to include not praying at all. If the Muslim kids want to throw down their prayer rugs in the direction of mecca they can do so.

But I'm just pulling this out of my ass.

I think you're right, as far as the off-campus stuff goes, but there are some potential issues with the way it's being pitched to the students and the way the school is used as pressure-grounds. That's why these assholes target schools so often; they know it's rife with peer pressure and carries the "official government/cultural stamp of approval" message to the kids they're trying to influence. It's why courts have actually been pretty good about recognizing the pernicious influence of such activities.

It's why I advised he call the FFRF to ask, so they could get the salient details and see if there's a violation that's actionable.

And yes, the son would be the one with standing, but as a minor I believe his parents share the constitutional damage required for standing, and/or can file on his behalf.

I think there was a football coach who got into trouble recently for calling for prayer berfore games. .... lemme look ... here it is.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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28-09-2016, 04:41 PM
RE: Separation of Church and State
(28-09-2016 07:01 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 05:02 AM)goldenarm Wrote:  Ok great! Thank you. No one will find out that I was the one who reported though will they?

Well, the FFRF won't report you, that's for sure. But if it comes down to a lawsuit, then you'll likely have to be the named person on the suit-- the FFRF can request that a "John Doe / Jane Roe" anonymous suit be filed, to protect the complainant, but frankly the judges tend to be biased in those shitty little places that pull this type of stuff, so the judges have often denied the request and there has been social backlash against the atheist doing the filing. So you'll have to cross that bridge when you come to it.

However, the FFRF doesn't start with a lawsuit; they start with a letter of complaint, and often the school will terminate what they know to be an unlawful activity, rather than face a lo$er of a court case. They always lose... it's just a matter of whether or not they try to pressure the complainant into shutting up, with judicial complicity.

Some judges are not bigots, and will honor the request. Just don't count on it.

At least call the FFRF... they'll be much better able to advise you on this stuff than anyone here could.

Okay thank you. I don't know if I misheard when and where this will occur, but it didn't occur today. If something does still happen, however, then I will call them! It's good to be prepared anyways.

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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