Separation of church and state in your country
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-05-2014, 04:33 AM
Separation of church and state in your country
In my country, Finland, the church and state are quite heavily in cooperation with each other. Church can collect their yearly member payments through government tax system and they receive money in form of community tax each year. As a devoted supporter of secular religion free state, I of course oppose this kind of favoring of one specific religious group.

Our church is the Evangelical Lutheran Church, about 85% of population belong to it. They receive community tax because they do part of the population counting and civil records, also they manage graveyards and crematoriums.

My gripe with this system is that every other contractor who handles the government's business just invoices them through their own organization and systems. Church on the other hand puts all these costs for doing work to be paid by the government, so it means that even if you don't belong to the church you have pay a lot of money indirectly. Church men of course say that there is no state church but forget to mention all this free money they receive from government. Worst is the money spent on extra costs in running their membership payments through government tax system it is absolutely just a fuck you all who don't belong to church, we are just going to spend your tax money on christian membership payments.

But of course church lobbyists don't want to change the system. Imagine if in January you would get a 500€ (average what you pay in taxes during the year) bill in the mail which says "Pay this and you are a member of Church for the next 12 months. We are not going to do anything for you but at least your place in heaven is paid for". That would really weigh how religious people really are, I think the percentage of members would drop to like 10%.

And yet another thing is that we have to go to school and military. In schools you have of course Easter church, Christmas church and morning announcements with religious content. Now the people in charge just say "Well you can go outside until the god part is over". Imagine if I said, "Well the gay people can go outside while I preach my straight people propaganda", I think at least the UN security council would be called to session.

So first the government takes your tax money, makes you go to military and then say "Well you can go into that separate group if you don't want to take the religious vow to the military". In top of just taking your fucking money they make you reveal your religious stance which is nobody's fucking business than your own.

There are a shitload of more examples how we have a state church even though the religious nuts say it's not. Like our national public radio and TV are paid by tax money and they show religious ceremonies, not like documentaries but people in church worshipping god.

For me as an atheist the state church is quite big injustice and in Finland it's quite apparent. For example I know in America on paper it's secular but what I've read and understand it's really not, people are trying to force religion to state institutes.

What is your opinion about all this? If you have a good example from your own country please share it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Tatuks's post
17-05-2014, 05:48 AM
RE: Separation of church and state in your country
That sounds more or less similar to the UK.

Here in Singapore, we have official tolerance of all religions but as far as I am aware, there is no state-funding of any sect/cult.

There is Freedom of speech and expression but generally it is accepted that intolerance is not tolerated!

Unsure

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes DLJ's post
17-05-2014, 05:51 AM
RE: Separation of church and state in your country
My opinion is that that sucks balls.
Finlands an interesting country though, it has an interesting history with Russia and the other Scandinavian countries. It's sort of unique in a lot of sense (compared to say Denmark, Norway and Swedish similarities) so I'm not surprised it's how you mention above.

It obviously does suck but if the vast majority of population support doing things that way you're sort of shit out of luck until public opinion changes and if religion is anything to go by it's going to be awhile before something changes.


Here it's weird. We don't have such obvious examples and we don't pay our churches with tax payer money, but we have all that stupid small shit like "god bless our free land" in our national anthem and how each school technically has an assigned pastor (or priest or minister or whatever the fuck it is) that says a prayer like once a year or so infront of the whole school. Small stupid shit like that.

But religion here isn't an issue at all. It's never brought up ever. It's never in the news, it's never a political issue, it's never mentioned anywhere because nobody gives a fuck. We're quite lucky in that sense.

I don't talk gay, I don't walk gay, it's like people don't even know I'm gay unless I'm blowing them.
[Image: 10h27hu.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-05-2014, 06:08 AM
RE: Separation of church and state in your country
(17-05-2014 05:51 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  My opinion is that that sucks balls.
Finlands an interesting country though, it has an interesting history with Russia and the other Scandinavian countries. It's sort of unique in a lot of sense (compared to say Denmark, Norway and Swedish similarities) so I'm not surprised it's how you mention above.

It obviously does suck but if the vast majority of population support doing things that way you're sort of shit out of luck until public opinion changes and if religion is anything to go by it's going to be awhile before something changes.


Here it's weird. We don't have such obvious examples and we don't pay our churches with tax payer money, but we have all that stupid small shit like "god bless our free land" in our national anthem and how each school technically has an assigned pastor (or priest or minister or whatever the fuck it is) that says a prayer like once a year or so infront of the whole school. Small stupid shit like that.

But religion here isn't an issue at all. It's never brought up ever. It's never in the news, it's never a political issue, it's never mentioned anywhere because nobody gives a fuck. We're quite lucky in that sense.

Sounds like a good deal, same in Singapore, no religious group favored over others. It hasn't been an issue here either, nobody cared until the last like 6 years. Now there are people in the parliament who are running the secular state but they are a minority still.

The funniest shit is the reaction we get from priests and people in the Bible belt (no t really a belt but area). As you can guess they are something like "It's a limitation of religious freedom if people in military/school/some government institution are not able to attend christian ceremonies. What a self centered asshole opinion.

As you said you also have to little things, I think they annoy me the most, it would be so easy to get rid of them and say "This is a government facility, all religions are freely practiced here but you can't make it mandatory or allow for example Christian minister to pray in here or bless the school or whatever other superstitious bullshit they try to force into everybody."

Government's job is to force law so everyone is free to practice their religion without fear of persecution or violence, that's all. They don't give money to religious groups, they don't have any supernatural beings mentioned in any institution which is paid with tax money and they don't take part in any religious ceremonies or arrange them.

This simple concept still seems to be too much for some people to understand.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-05-2014, 06:31 AM
RE: Separation of church and state in your country
Quote:Government's job is to force law so everyone is free to practice their religion without fear of persecution or violence, that's all. They don't give money to religious groups, they don't have any supernatural beings mentioned in any institution which is paid with tax money and they don't take part in any religious ceremonies or arrange them.

This simple concept still seems to be too much for some people to understand.

Welcome to Earth, please enjoy your stay.

I don't talk gay, I don't walk gay, it's like people don't even know I'm gay unless I'm blowing them.
[Image: 10h27hu.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes earmuffs's post
17-05-2014, 08:29 PM
RE: Separation of church and state in your country
Tatuks, while I agree with you on the state essentially forcing people to fund a given church, it doesn't strike me as being any more egregious than all the other belief systems the state forces people to fund against their will. Sure, to an atheist state-sponsored religion seems pretty egregious. But most countries also force you to fund a military system, which is often times aggressive, invading other countries, slaughtering innocent people, plundering their lands. As much as I dislike the church and think it does harm, I'd rather be forced to pay money to a church than to a military organization that does even MORE harm. Or what about some country's strict drug enforcement laws. Science-based analysis has shown that locking people up in jail for smoking weed only destroys their life and does nothing to "correct" their behavior. So, belief in that institution is a disastrous, facts-be-damned, scorched earth, faith-based religion just as much as a church. And yet all taxpayers are similarly forced to fund it. At least today the churches in Finland don't seem to be doing too much harm, besides spreading misinformation. They're not marauding and killing people or locking people in dungeons for "immoral" behavior, like other government agencies do.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes frankksj's post
19-05-2014, 07:39 AM
RE: Separation of church and state in your country
In China, Muslims in cites are subsidized in their buying of meat that obey their religious teachings. Catholics are probably supported by state because Chinese Catholics normally do not listen to Vatican. Christians on this land don't obey their Caesar as they are taught, but they should be getting a little fund. Buddhism flourishes and money from followers keeps pouring in, which is more or less like a pantheism thing. Daoism keeps shrinking, which can be understood for that dialectics is not easy to comprehend.

Separation ?

Well, religion is theoretically confined to the allocated places sanctioned by the government. In practice, religion is rarely seen on the street without governmental approval.

Want something? Then do something.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-05-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Separation of church and state in your country
(19-05-2014 07:39 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  In China, Muslims in cites are subsidized in their buying of meat that obey their religious teachings. Catholics are probably supported by state because Chinese Catholics normally do not listen to Vatican. Christians on this land don't obey their Caesar as they are taught, but they should be getting a little fund. Buddhism flourishes and money from followers keeps pouring in, which is more or less like a pantheism thing. Daoism keeps shrinking, which can be understood for that dialectics is not easy to comprehend.

Separation ?

Well, religion is theoretically confined to the allocated places sanctioned by the government. In practice, religion is rarely seen on the street without governmental approval.

Can I draw a conclusion here that state doesn't support them just out of good will but try to set some guidelines for them in order to get benefits from government?

Sounds like a good deal to be religious in China. The government does'nt opress them but tries to keep a bit low profile with religious institutes by giving them benefits but then keeping control by demanding permissions for visibility.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-05-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: Separation of church and state in your country
(17-05-2014 08:29 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Tatuks, while I agree with you on the state essentially forcing people to fund a given church, it doesn't strike me as being any more egregious than all the other belief systems the state forces people to fund against their will. Sure, to an atheist state-sponsored religion seems pretty egregious. But most countries also force you to fund a military system, which is often times aggressive, invading other countries, slaughtering innocent people, plundering their lands. As much as I dislike the church and think it does harm, I'd rather be forced to pay money to a church than to a military organization that does even MORE harm. Or what about some country's strict drug enforcement laws. Science-based analysis has shown that locking people up in jail for smoking weed only destroys their life and does nothing to "correct" their behavior. So, belief in that institution is a disastrous, facts-be-damned, scorched earth, faith-based religion just as much as a church. And yet all taxpayers are similarly forced to fund it. At least today the churches in Finland don't seem to be doing too much harm, besides spreading misinformation. They're not marauding and killing people or locking people in dungeons for "immoral" behavior, like other government agencies do.

You are quite right. But still church isn't a construction inside a society to which you can't do anything without affecting million other things. Many countries have switched to secular system and usually you cant see that much social changes to better or worse. Like if you do a healthcare reform it's pretty big thing and you can't predict it accurately no matter what, but with church it just doesn't affect so many things so you can much more safely just cut it's life support.

So if we are talking about things that are not so harmful and you just could leave them be and go on with your life, I say that it would be so easy to separate church from government that you should and could do it without big reprecussions.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-06-2014, 04:10 AM
RE: Separation of church and state in your country
While every religion is tolerated there's an official (christian) state church here in Norway as well.

The church is mostly subject to the state, and I feel it works quite well. The only groups trying to convert people are people like Mormons or Jehovas witnesses which you might encounter once or twice a year.

There has, of course, been some resistance to certain topics such as female priests, abortion or gay marriage, but nothing serious (at least not compared to other places) and most of the church has been quite accepting of newer ideas.

For the most part it's a live and let live environment.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: