Seperating organisms
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03-01-2015, 07:36 AM
Seperating organisms
Apros of this thread. When we see evolution seperate organisms into a sub-species and it's parent clade (doesn't matter how it's done) and when it happens again: Would that produce a new sub-species of that sub-species or does it require a new term?

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03-01-2015, 07:44 AM
RE: Seperating organisms
(03-01-2015 07:36 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Apros of this thread. When we see evolution seperate organisms into a sub-species and it's parent clade (doesn't matter how it's done) and when it happens again: Would that produce a new sub-species of that sub-species or does it require a new term?

It would most likely make a new species as subspecies is the lowest on the taxonomic list, lower than species in fact.

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03-01-2015, 07:52 AM
RE: Seperating organisms
Thought so. Thanks.

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03-01-2015, 11:06 PM
RE: Seperating organisms
(03-01-2015 07:36 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Apros of this thread. When we see evolution seperate organisms into a sub-species and it's parent clade (doesn't matter how it's done) and when it happens again: Would that produce a new sub-species of that sub-species or does it require a new term?

Sub-species are usually a reproductively isolated group whose members are still capable of interbreeding with the other members of the species.

A sub-species dividing would simply create two sub-species.

A new species arises when interbreeding is no longer possible.

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04-01-2015, 08:03 AM
RE: Seperating organisms
(03-01-2015 11:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  A new species arises when interbreeding is no longer possible.

Oh it is not that simple.

First, take into account asexual species, they need to be taken into account as some(like bacteria) have many genera with all asexual species, making the interbreeding part hard to tell them apart as species

Second, felines also ruin this simplistic way. The pumapard is a cross breed between the puma and the leopard. The problem is that pumas and leopards belong to two different subfamilies yet can still interbreed.

At best when it comes to interbreeding it is more that either they can't or if they can, there offspring is pretty much infertile.

The best definition so far is

"A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions."

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/ev...cies.shtml

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04-01-2015, 09:05 AM
RE: Seperating organisms
(04-01-2015 08:03 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(03-01-2015 11:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  A new species arises when interbreeding is no longer possible.

Oh it is not that simple.

I try to keep in mind that "species" is a human label that we apply for convenience while in reality it is really more of a continuum with gaps where the transitional forms are extinct. In most places the gaps are wide enough to make "species" a useful concept but, as Zeke illustrated, there are places where the gaps are narrow enough to blur the concept.

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04-01-2015, 06:48 PM
RE: Seperating organisms
(04-01-2015 08:03 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(03-01-2015 11:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  A new species arises when interbreeding is no longer possible.

Oh it is not that simple.

First, take into account asexual species, they need to be taken into account as some(like bacteria) have many genera with all asexual species, making the interbreeding part hard to tell them apart as species

Second, felines also ruin this simplistic way. The pumapard is a cross breed between the puma and the leopard. The problem is that pumas and leopards belong to two different subfamilies yet can still interbreed.

At best when it comes to interbreeding it is more that either they can't or if they can, there offspring is pretty much infertile.

The best definition so far is

"A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions."

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/ev...cies.shtml

I was talking about 'in nature'. Dodgy

The concept of species really only applies to sexually reproducing organisms.

Asexually reproducing organisms can be thought of as 'clouds' of closely related organisms. This is the reason that a virus or bacterium can mutate so quickly - there isn't one virus or one bacterium, there are billions of similar viruses/bacteria which provides enormous variability and potential adaptations.

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04-01-2015, 07:32 PM
RE: Seperating organisms
(04-01-2015 06:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-01-2015 08:03 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Oh it is not that simple.

First, take into account asexual species, they need to be taken into account as some(like bacteria) have many genera with all asexual species, making the interbreeding part hard to tell them apart as species

Second, felines also ruin this simplistic way. The pumapard is a cross breed between the puma and the leopard. The problem is that pumas and leopards belong to two different subfamilies yet can still interbreed.

At best when it comes to interbreeding it is more that either they can't or if they can, there offspring is pretty much infertile.

The best definition so far is

"A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions."

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/ev...cies.shtml

I was talking about 'in nature'. Dodgy

The concept of species really only applies to sexually reproducing organisms.

Asexually reproducing organisms can be thought of as 'clouds' of closely related organisms. This is the reason that a virus or bacterium can mutate so quickly - there isn't one virus or one bacterium, there are billions of similar viruses/bacteria which provides enormous variability and potential adaptations.

I wasn't disagreeing with ya, just had to say it was more complex than that.

Also bacteria are placed in species, but as I told many people, if we treated bacteria taxonomically like we did animals, there would be a new family every day, so in that sense you are right.

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