Seventh Day Adventists?
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03-02-2016, 08:48 AM
RE: Seventh Day Adventists?
(03-02-2016 08:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no rational basis for that axiom. Drinking Beverage

Mathematicians are known to preoccupy themselves with wildly non-intuitive constructs just to see what the implications are. Feel free to respect me as a mathematician in that sense.
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03-02-2016, 09:07 AM
RE: Seventh Day Adventists?
(03-02-2016 08:48 AM)Zog Has-fallen Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 08:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no rational basis for that axiom. Drinking Beverage

Mathematicians are known to preoccupy themselves with wildly non-intuitive constructs just to see what the implications are. Feel free to respect me as a mathematician in that sense.

No, it is not mathematics. It is an irrational assumption about reality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-02-2016, 09:15 AM
RE: Seventh Day Adventists?
(03-02-2016 09:07 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 08:48 AM)Zog Has-fallen Wrote:  Mathematicians are known to preoccupy themselves with wildly non-intuitive constructs just to see what the implications are. Feel free to respect me as a mathematician in that sense.

No, it is not mathematics. It is an irrational assumption about reality.

Mathematics is the science of discovering precise definitions and new theorems that reveal exquisite structures. Please direct me to your celebrated proof that my abstract axiom is irrational.
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03-02-2016, 09:27 AM
RE: Seventh Day Adventists?
(03-02-2016 09:15 AM)Zog Has-fallen Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 09:07 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, it is not mathematics. It is an irrational assumption about reality.

Mathematics is the science of discovering precise definitions and new theorems that reveal exquisite structures.

That is a quirky and incomplete definition of mathematics.

Quote:Please direct me to your celebrated proof that my abstract axiom is irrational.

Axioms are neither proved nor disproved. They are assumed - that's what makes them axioms.

Since we are not, in fact, dealing with mathematics, let's look at the philosophical definition:

"An axiom or postulate as defined in classic philosophy, is a statement (in mathematics often shown in symbolic form) that is so evident or well-established, that it is accepted without controversy or question."

Your assumption about the existence of some god does not fit the philosophical definition.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-02-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: Seventh Day Adventists?
(02-02-2016 09:26 PM)Zog Has-fallen Wrote:  There are many differences. The biggest difference, I think, is that Millerite Adventists believe that the Ellenite Adventists have jumped the gun about assembling to worship God every seventh-day of the week. That isn't expected to restart until the world is made new. Millerites also think that the Ellenites are wrong in their interpretation of endtime events.

What objective, testable criteria can be used to determine which interpretation is correct?

(03-02-2016 08:22 AM)Zog Has-fallen Wrote:  So in place of having an indisputable proof or euphoric feelings myself, I just take the existence of God as an axiom.

Why would you do that? Do you also take the existence of zombies, unicorns, fairies, and leprechauns as axiomatic?

(03-02-2016 08:48 AM)Zog Has-fallen Wrote:  Mathematicians are known to preoccupy themselves with wildly non-intuitive constructs just to see what the implications are. Feel free to respect me as a mathematician in that sense.

The difference is that they don't just take those "wildly non-intuitive constructs" as axioms in reality. Speculating and evaluating the implications is not at all the same as what theists do. The former can be respected, and even admired. The latter, not so much.

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03-02-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: Seventh Day Adventists?
(03-02-2016 09:15 AM)Zog Has-fallen Wrote:  Please direct me to your celebrated proof that my abstract axiom is irrational.

That axiom is as rational as an axiom that posits that leprechauns exist.

One doesn't need to prove it wrong before they can just dismiss it. If you hold some axiom that cannot be demonstrated to be true or have any effect whatsoever... of what use is the axiom? I mean, yeah, I could just assume that the sky is actually red, but just looks blue, but why?
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03-02-2016, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2016 11:52 AM by Zog Has-fallen.)
RE: Seventh Day Adventists?
(03-02-2016 09:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 09:15 AM)Zog Has-fallen Wrote:  Mathematics is the science of discovering precise definitions and new theorems that reveal exquisite structures.

That is a quirky and incomplete definition of mathematics.

Quote: Please direct me to your celebrated proof that my abstract axiom is irrational.

Axioms are neither proved nor disproved. They are assumed - that's what makes them axioms.

Since we are not, in fact, dealing with mathematics, let's look at the philosophical definition:

"An axiom or postulate as defined in classic philosophy, is a statement (in mathematics often shown in symbolic form) that is so evident or well-established, that it is accepted without controversy or question."

Your assumption about the existence of some god does not fit the philosophical definition.

Please leave mathematics to the mathematicians. I was quoting a mathematician.

Mathematics is the greatest science:

"Our experience hitherto justifies us in believing that nature is the realization of the simplest conceivable mathematical ideas. I am convinced that we can discover by means of pure mathematical constructions the concepts and the laws connecting them with each other, which furnish the key to the understanding of natural phenomena. Experience may suggest the appropriate mathematical concepts, but they most certainly cannot be deduced from it. Experience remains, of course, the sole criterion of the physical utility of a mathematical construction. But the creative principle resides in mathematics. In a certain sense, therefore I hold it true that pure thought can grasp reality, as the ancients dreamed." -- A. Einstein, 1954, Ideas and Opinions.

"A great physical theory is not mature until it has been put in a precise mathematical form, and it is often only in such a mature form that it admits clear answers to conceptual problems." -- A. S. Wightman, Hilbert's sixth problem: mathematical treatment of the axioms of physics, in: Proc. Sympos. Pure Math., Vol. 28, AMS, 1976, pp. 147-220.

"Scientists are explorers. Philosophers are tourists." — Richard P. Feynman.

"For all practical purposes, a proof is any completely convincing argument." Thanks for confessing that you don't have one.
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03-02-2016, 12:26 PM
RE: Seventh Day Adventists?
(03-02-2016 11:44 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 09:15 AM)Zog Has-fallen Wrote:  Please direct me to your celebrated proof that my abstract axiom is irrational.

That axiom is as rational as an axiom that posits that leprechauns exist.

One doesn't need to prove it wrong before they can just dismiss it. If you hold some axiom that cannot be demonstrated to be true or have any effect whatsoever... of what use is the axiom? I mean, yeah, I could just assume that the sky is actually red, but just looks blue, but why?

That's a mighty big if. For those willing to examine the theory, the axiom set of the Confessing Millerite Adventists has profound implications.
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03-02-2016, 12:31 PM
RE: Seventh Day Adventists?
(03-02-2016 11:49 AM)Zog Has-fallen Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 09:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  That is a quirky and incomplete definition of mathematics.

Please leave mathematics to the mathematicians. I was quoting a mathematician.

ummm .... yeah. Chas in fact is a mathematician. Einstein on the other hand was a theoretical physicist, not a mathematician.

#sigh
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03-02-2016, 12:36 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2016 12:42 PM by Zog Has-fallen.)
RE: Seventh Day Adventists?
(03-02-2016 10:51 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Do you also take the existence of zombies, unicorns, fairies, and leprechauns as axiomatic?

They may be the axioms of many but they're not for me. I'm only interested in precise definitions and constructs that generate new theorems that indisputably reveal exquisite structures.
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