Sex scandals
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13-11-2012, 03:28 PM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2012 03:34 PM by Chas.)
RE: Sex scandals
(13-11-2012 02:11 PM)Idlecuriosity Wrote:  
(13-11-2012 12:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  Or the French Vice President asking what was the point of having power if it didn't include sex with young women.

France doesn't actually have a Vice President, but that's just details. Although having a mistress is almost a required qualification for public office in France.
Right. It was the deputy prime minister, I believe.

I'm looking for a citation.

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13-11-2012, 04:01 PM
RE: Sex scandals
I have to admit, I slightly get the concept.

I absolutely believe in, for myself, honoring every commitment I make. I don't make a promise unless I plan to keep it. If I can't keep it, I don't make it. If I find out later that a promise I made in good faith at the time is now beyond my ability to keep, I fix the initial promise with whomever I promised it to - I own up to my failure and try to make it right, preferably before I break that promise. Honor, loyalty, dignity, integrity. Those mean a lot to me. I strive to do the right thing.

I appreciate the same qualities in other people.

Conversely, when someone proves that they lack the same qualities, or at least that they lack the same commitment to these qualities, I do tend to think less of them as a person.

My ex wife cheated on me. I knew about it for years. My friends (those that were close enough for me to discuss this with them) said it gave me a free pass to fool around too. I didn't. Not because I was married in the eyes of some imaginary God, but because I was married in the eyes of me. We didn't get divorced until our kids were older and could deal with it, and for those last few years she fooled around constantly but I didn't. Maybe I was the fool.

In any case, when a public official commits adultery, I don't immediately jump on the band wagon and assume he's unfit for public office. I would have reelected Clinton if that had been an option. However, I do think less of that public official as a person. He or she has demonstrated that he/she has less integrity than I would like in a person.

Despite this lesser esteem for their proven lack of integrity, they may still be perfectly capable of doing their job. But I still have to ask, if they lack the integrity to take care of their personal commitments, the ones that directly affect them in their own personal lives, then how can I trust them to have the integrity to take care of impersonal commitments to random constituents they've never even met?

On the plus side, since I believe that (more or less) absolutely all politicians have absolutely zero integrity to begin with, their infidelity doesn't make me think less of them as a person because it's pretty much impossible to think less of them than I already do - but they may still be perfectly good politicians, with or without infidelity, with or without integrity.

Now, when non-public-officials like soldiers have an affair, well, their demonstrated lack of integrity might make me less willing to lend them money, or to let them date my daughter, I don't see that as much of an impediment to having them defend the country. But I still ask the same question, if they lack the integrity to take care of their personal commitments, the ones that directly affect them in their own personal lives, then how can I trust them to honor their commitment to stand in the line of fire and defend our country and our freedom?

Maybe that's a different kind of commitment. Maybe some non-cheating soldier might run from a battle while another adulterer soldier would stand and fight. Maybe my thinking less of the adulterer soldier doesn't reflect on his ability or willingness or commitment to defend this country at all. I recognize this fact and wouldn't oust them from the military, or from any other profession (well, maybe I would want and adulterer marriage counselor to find a new career).

But I still think less of them for their lack of virtues that I personally value, so I can see, without condoning it, where others who live in a more black-and-white mindset may believe that thinking less of a person means forcing changes on their lives.

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13-11-2012, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2012 04:51 PM by Dark Light.)
RE: Sex scandals
Dom,

Yes, the military service-men have additional laws which they are accountable for (Uniform Code of Military Justice or UCMJ) which no civilian would ever be subject to, and usually you break more than one at a time. For example, let's say my ship got underway and I wasn't on-board. I could be charged with 'missing ships movement' (Article 87 and probably Article 85), and 'disobeying a direct order' (Article 90/91/98). Likewise if I got a DUI I would be charged in normal courts, and after I served my time I would be charged with the same thing under military law (Article 111, and possible Article 112, 112a and 113) in addition to 'disobeying a direct order'(Article 90 or Article 91, and probably also Article 98), and 'bringing discredit on the myself and [insert branch of service here] (Article 134). If they really want to fuck you over, they can easily bring up five or six charges for a single action. Usually a new CO will do this to show that he is 'serious', or if you just plain piss him/her off. You cannot really defend yourself, but you can challenge his ruling and take it to court martial if you feel he/she is being unfair, but you'd better have a good reason, the judge will usually up-hold the CO's decision without some pretty convincing reason. I think of it as you are guilty until proven innocent, and I fucking hate it (For Non-Judicial Punishment). Cheating on a spouse is a big no-no, falls under article 134. If your command finds out about it, they will make you inform your spouse, or they will do it for you. If you divorce, your ex-spouse will get a portion of your pay, and you better believe you will be punished for it. Especially if it was with a spouse of another military member, or a subordinate.

Most common punishments are
Hard Labor/Extra Duty
Restriction (confined to an area, usually in the Navy the ship)
Reduction in Rate (Demotion, with a long time until available for promotion)
Half Months Pay time two
Locked up in brig/prison. In the Navy you often only get bread/water for first three days.
After you do your time, get booted out.

As for the email's yeah there were tens of thousands, but most of it was likely business. My guess is very little of that was sexual or flirting.

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13-11-2012, 05:18 PM
RE: Sex scandals
(13-11-2012 04:27 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Dom,

Yes, the military service-men have additional laws which they are accountable for (Uniform Code of Military Justice or UCMJ) which no civilian would ever be subject to, and usually you break more than one at a time. For example, let's say my ship got underway and I wasn't on-board. I could be charged with 'missing ships movement' (Article 87 and probably Article 85), and 'disobeying a direct order' (Article 90/91/98). Likewise if I got a DUI I would be charged in normal courts, and after I served my time I would be charged with the same thing under military law (Article 111, and possible Article 112, 112a and 113) in addition to 'disobeying a direct order'(Article 90 or Article 91, and probably also Article 98), and 'bringing discredit on the myself and [insert branch of service here] (Article 134). If they really want to fuck you over, they can easily bring up five or six charges for a single action. Usually a new CO will do this to show that he is 'serious', or if you just plain piss him/her off. You cannot really defend yourself, but you can challenge his ruling and take it to court martial if you feel he/she is being unfair, but you'd better have a good reason, the judge will usually up-hold the CO's decision without some pretty convincing reason. I think of it as you are guilty until proven innocent, and I fucking hate it (For Non-Judicial Punishment). Cheating on a spouse is a big no-no, falls under article 134. If your command finds out about it, they will make you inform your spouse, or they will do it for you. If you divorce, your ex-spouse will get a portion of your pay, and you better believe you will be punished for it. Especially if it was with a spouse of another military member, or a subordinate.

Most common punishments are
Hard Labor/Extra Duty
Restriction (confined to an area, usually in the Navy the ship)
Reduction in Rate (Demotion, with a long time until available for promotion)
Half Months Pay time two
Locked up in brig/prison. In the Navy you often only get bread/water for first three days.
After you do your time, get booted out.

As for the email's yeah there were tens of thousands, but most of it was likely business. My guess is very little of that was sexual or flirting.



Yikes. Glad I don't have to live in such a structure. I am way too much of a rebel.

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14-11-2012, 11:58 AM
RE: Sex scandals
More on why this isn't a sex issue so much as it is a security issue:

http://gma.yahoo.com/broadwell-classifie...54139.html

But security scandals don't get the press that sex scandals get. Sex really does sell!

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15-11-2012, 12:05 AM
RE: Sex scandals
(13-11-2012 06:51 AM)Dom Wrote:  I am getting really tired of listening to news about sex scandals.

Who cares? Why would they discredit someone's work because of some very private activity?

I mean, if it involves children or such, yes, it's an issue, it's a crime. But two consenting adults?

And what's this about adultery being a crime in the military? Are we muslim now?


Actually it matters if the person involved has access to top secret information and is believed to have been storing documents at the other woman's place. It is also important when it is a politician that claims to be christian, votes down abortion rights, and say that marriage is important and that gays can't get married, then cheat on their wives and lie about it. If you have access to top secret material, you are guilty of something by allowing those documents to end up at the apartment or house of someone not cleared to see it. If you are the politician that does the shit listed above, if what we as citizens do is your business then what you do sure as shit is our business.
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18-11-2012, 05:30 AM
RE: Sex scandals
I can understand the hype when it's someone who has a lot of power. Sex with someone besides the spouse, (if married), can be used as blackmail, or motivation, or a distraction.

Granted, the real times where it matters are not that often. It only really matters if someone is an agency director or a very top level politician, or they are agents/operatives/people with information.

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18-11-2012, 08:38 PM
RE: Sex scandals
It should only be an issue if it has become an issue, not if it has the potential to become an issue. If you can't trust that a General or Admiral to keep our secrets secret than you can't trust anyone. Even under pressure...a junior person with a clearance is much more likely to do this. As long as the proper protocols are being followed I see no reason for concern in this regard.

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