Sex vs. gender and identity
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26-12-2015, 11:50 AM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 08:49 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I agree the guy sounds like an ass. I think he's taken the term skeptic to a whole other level. I mean what does he want? Someone who says they are Mary, but looks like a Tom, to take their pants off and show him? I mean come on. If someone is transgendered, transsexual, or a biological male or female who may have feminine/ masculine characteristics of what business is it to him? It does not impact him or his life in any way. Religion, on the other hand, violates people's lives. It stands in the way of science. It produces magical thinking and hate. Those things we need to be skeptical of.

I met a man in Ft Lauderdale when it was noted as very open to gayness who claimed he was walking down the street topless and was arrested for so doing. He had boobs, he would sit on my cousin's couch and show off his nice B boobs without a shirt on. His story went that during his trial for walking down the street without a shirt on he asked the judge to take him into the judges chambers and allow him to drop his drawers and show that he was a man. His request was granted and the case dismissed. I didn't really believe as I sat and listened to his tale, but that is his claim.
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26-12-2015, 12:14 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
How does one even know if the way he feels is the the way men feel or is the way how women feel?

Not sure if the question is clear. I don't know how other man feel or how women feel. I have nothing to compare my feel with so I can say "Oh, yeah, that's it, I feel like a man" , maybe the way I feel is like a women.

When somebody says "I feel like a woman/man" , first question to ask should be "How do you know" ?

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26-12-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 12:14 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  How does one even know if the way he feels is the the way men feel or is the way how women feel?

Not sure if the question is clear. I don't know how other man feel or how women feel. I have nothing to compare my feel with so I can say "Oh, yeah, that's it, I feel like a man" , maybe the way I feel is like a women.

When somebody says "I feel like a woman/man" , first question to ask should be "How do you know" ?

I am a man, but feel like a woman at last once a day! And if I don't get one it is a misdemeanor. The more I miss the meaner I get!
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26-12-2015, 12:32 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 11:33 AM)Dom Wrote:  I don't know why fakes are being brought up as part of the argument. People fake all sort of things to accomplish whatever they are pursuing. Has nothing to do with the topic, really.

I brought up Dolezal only because she explained herself, essentially, as truly "being" black, at least in some of the interviews I've read.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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26-12-2015, 12:33 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
I have to admit that personally I think transgender in is something akin to a mental health issue. That being the structure of your brain and the chemical balance in it is at work. I'm not sure it's something you can treat as such nor do I deem it to be a problem to let people get an operation to be transformed into their perceived right gender. I also don't mind calling them by their new name.
It do end up in some poblematic situations when there is children involved. One of my sisters is facing such a situation as her x husband is now in the transformative state and call herself by a womans name. And I fear that their children will face some hardship in the coming years due to that.

I also sometimes wonder how I would feel if I met a lovely girl who said she once was a man. I'd like to think it wouldn't chance anything, but who knows how one might react.
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26-12-2015, 12:40 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 11:42 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  My daughter is transgender. Here are several scientific studies on the subject.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com.au/p/transse...ntity.html

When someone comes out as transgender they're not just doing it for fun. For most transgender people it's something that's they've felt since childhood or sometimes during puberty it hits them like a ton of bricks as it did for my daughter.

If someone says they have felt they are the opposite sex it's not just a spur of the moment idea, there are actual physical differences in the brain in the areas that contribute to gender. Sometimes I wish the brain was see-through, like a piece of glass, so friends and fellow workers could see the differences in the brain just like they do with skin color.

I completely accept the ideas you express above, on a personal level (an interesting book called "Becoming Nicole" seems a great case study) and again, my practice (like many commenters here), is to accept what people wish to be called in terms of name, pronouns, etc.

And I am getting the feeling that I am just being dense — that may be the case — in trying to better understand the distinctions being drawn. I get that gender is a matter of "internal" identification, and therefore it seems uncharitable (to put it lightly) to contend that one knows better than the person one is speaking to (sort of like assholes like Sye Ten Bruggencate, who tell us with great certainty what we "believe" and "know" to be true about god).

My interest — and I guess it's "academic," in the sense that I behave the way I've described above — is just whether we go the extra mile with gender identification vs. other, presumably internal self-identity issues. For example, someone could truly believe that they are African-American, even if genetically that isn't the case, and few will grant them that status if they know the facts (or so it seems). Yet if someone who is transgender makes a similar pronouncement, in opposition to genetic "evidence," decent, compassionate people will give them the benefit of the doubt.

I still don't quite get the external v. internal distinction (well, I do, but I'm not sure it's wholly relevant — if someone absolutely believes they hear the voice of God in their head, isn't that internal, and how are we to examine that?)

I appreciate the thoughts and will continue to read.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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26-12-2015, 02:16 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
While working as a bellman I've meet a great range of characters. One of those people (we'll call him Ms. Key.) was a regular around the holidays. Normally Halloween because he enjoyed wearing the skimpiest of outfits. Sometimes a nurse, or a maid, a ballerina you get the idea. Now Ms. Key, looked nothing like a woman outside the outfits, cheep wigs, and two bowling ball implants. Very masculine in appearance was about 6'4" looked like he made have been a lineman in college, and masculine voice.

One of the first time's he showed up our lead resepctionist had addressed him as a he. (How can I help you Sir?) SHE was not happy about this and asked to speack with the manager. Our manager handled it rather well. And talked with the the Resecptionist after words. She said "I didn't know, she's obviously a man. It's holloween so I thought it was just dress up." My Manger respond "Go by the Licence, if the state of california say's shes a woman she's a woman."

I made a side comment
We give out scooters to some guest that require them for getting around. Mostly elderly but a good number Obese or lazy. Our scooters are not the best and do have weight restrictions usually maxing out at 215. We had one guest once that came to return one of these scooters because she said the batter kept dieing on her. She was morbidly obease. Weighing her by eye I would say no lighter the 350lbs. (I weight 215 and she was triple my size.) We have to make copy's of drives licenses, my concierge asked me to guess her weight I did and he showed me her license. It said 125lbs.
My comment was If the state of California identifies her as 125lbs, are they right?

I know I come off as a bit of an ass. But what is the fine line, between mental disorder, self denial or being miss understood?
I don't see the harm in identify oneself as a woman, even if your born a man. And if they want to go threw the long expensive process to modify their body to look how they feel But there are people that think they're animals (otherkin). Or being reincarnated.

I feel that as long as they can function in the real world then no harm no fowl. I just don't understand the experiences they're going threw.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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26-12-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 02:16 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  While working as a bellman I've meet a great range of characters. One of those people (we'll call him Ms. Key.) was a regular around the holidays. Normally Halloween because he enjoyed wearing the skimpiest of outfits. Sometimes a nurse, or a maid, a ballerina you get the idea. Now Ms. Key, looked nothing like a woman outside the outfits, cheep wigs, and two bowling ball implants. Very masculine in appearance was about 6'4" looked like he made have been a lineman in college, and masculine voice.

So you have met girlyman before?

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26-12-2015, 02:40 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 02:28 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 02:16 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  While working as a bellman I've meet a great range of characters. One of those people (we'll call him Ms. Key.) was a regular around the holidays. Normally Halloween because he enjoyed wearing the skimpiest of outfits. Sometimes a nurse, or a maid, a ballerina you get the idea. Now Ms. Key, looked nothing like a woman outside the outfits, cheep wigs, and two bowling ball implants. Very masculine in appearance was about 6'4" looked like he made have been a lineman in college, and masculine voice.

So you have met girlyman before?

Do I look amused?

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There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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26-12-2015, 02:42 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 02:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 02:28 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  So you have met girlyman before?

Do I look amused?

[Image: redhead.png]

MaybeConsider

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