Sex vs. gender and identity
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26-12-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
[Image: IggyPop-Dress.jpg]

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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26-12-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 12:40 PM)claywise Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 11:42 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  My daughter is transgender. Here are several scientific studies on the subject.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com.au/p/transse...ntity.html

When someone comes out as transgender they're not just doing it for fun. For most transgender people it's something that's they've felt since childhood or sometimes during puberty it hits them like a ton of bricks as it did for my daughter.

If someone says they have felt they are the opposite sex it's not just a spur of the moment idea, there are actual physical differences in the brain in the areas that contribute to gender. Sometimes I wish the brain was see-through, like a piece of glass, so friends and fellow workers could see the differences in the brain just like they do with skin color.

I completely accept the ideas you express above, on a personal level (an interesting book called "Becoming Nicole" seems a great case study) and again, my practice (like many commenters here), is to accept what people wish to be called in terms of name, pronouns, etc.

And I am getting the feeling that I am just being dense — that may be the case — in trying to better understand the distinctions being drawn. I get that gender is a matter of "internal" identification, and therefore it seems uncharitable (to put it lightly) to contend that one knows better than the person one is speaking to (sort of like assholes like Sye Ten Bruggencate, who tell us with great certainty what we "believe" and "know" to be true about god).

My interest — and I guess it's "academic," in the sense that I behave the way I've described above — is just whether we go the extra mile with gender identification vs. other, presumably internal self-identity issues. For example, someone could truly believe that they are African-American, even if genetically that isn't the case, and few will grant them that status if they know the facts (or so it seems). Yet if someone who is transgender makes a similar pronouncement, in opposition to genetic "evidence," decent, compassionate people will give them the benefit of the doubt.

I still don't quite get the external v. internal distinction (well, I do, but I'm not sure it's wholly relevant — if someone absolutely believes they hear the voice of God in their head, isn't that internal, and how are we to examine that?)

I appreciate the thoughts and will continue to read.

Most transgender people I know, my daughter included, simply want to be treated like a regular person and blend into the crowd. But the problem is that they aren't thought of as a regular person so blending is difficult, especially when they're male to female and transitioned after the age of 25. My daughter transitioned at 19 so most people probably don't notice that's she'd different.

From the link you posted is this.

Sexual differentiation of the genitals happens at about six weeks, but the sexual differentiation of the brain, including gender identity and the setting of our gender behavior, is, at least partly, a distinct process. Again, hormones play the crucial role, with surges of testosterone indirectly “masculinizing” the brains of some fetuses, causing subtle but distinct differences in brain structure and functional activity.

In my daughter's case a surge of estrogen feminized her brain.

So gender isn't simply what a person's genitals are, gender is also set in the brain from exposure to hormones while in utero. It's not just THINKING they are of the other sex, their brain structure IS of the opposite sex. It's not like someone thinking they hear god or that they feel black, the BRAIN ITSELF is female so of course they're going to think they are female. They are female. My daughter had a female brain but a male body and the misalignment of these two caused horrible psychological trauma and even physical pain, until she began hormone treatment.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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26-12-2015, 03:52 PM (This post was last modified: 26-12-2015 03:58 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 03:22 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:   Sexual differentiation of the genitals happens at about six weeks, but the sexual differentiation of the brain, including gender identity and the setting of our gender behavior, is, at least partly, a distinct process. Again, hormones play the crucial role, with surges of testosterone indirectly “masculinizing” the brains of some fetuses, causing subtle but distinct differences in brain structure and functional activity.

In my daughter's case a surge of estrogen feminized her brain.

Think that's got it. Brain receives testosterone in the womb and genitalia receives estrogen, or vice versa.

As a hypogonadal male who has been manipulating my T/E ratio exogenously for a decade now, I am able to experience the T/E levels of a little girl, the T/E levels of a 17 yo boy with 3x natural horniness T/E levels, the T/E levels of an old man, and the T/E levels of a woman. Think I like the little girl's T/E ratio the best.

#sigh
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26-12-2015, 03:57 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 03:22 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  [Image: IggyPop-Dress.jpg]




#sigh
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26-12-2015, 04:21 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 03:22 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  In my daughter's case a surge of estrogen feminized her brain.

So gender isn't simply what a person's genitals are, gender is also set in the brain from exposure to hormones while in utero. It's not just THINKING they are of the other sex, their brain structure IS of the opposite sex.

Thanks. It's been a little while since I read the story and book, so I appreciate this refresher. Indeed, it was this information, as much as any other, that I found persuasive — I had just forgotten it.

Bottom line: I am aware of my own, relatively mild, uneasiness with transgender people. I suspect that has to do with having a father who constantly questioned my "manhood" and "masculinity" from a young age, and later, when I was an adult (with a long record of relationships with women!), questioning whether I was gay. I see that now as a very insecure man projecting on his very "all boy" son. Oddly, I do not experience any discomfort with gay and lesbian people at all, but the gender-queer thing has always nettled me a bit.

Thanks again for the reminder.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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26-12-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 03:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 03:22 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:   Sexual differentiation of the genitals happens at about six weeks, but the sexual differentiation of the brain, including gender identity and the setting of our gender behavior, is, at least partly, a distinct process. Again, hormones play the crucial role, with surges of testosterone indirectly “masculinizing” the brains of some fetuses, causing subtle but distinct differences in brain structure and functional activity.

In my daughter's case a surge of estrogen feminized her brain.

Think that's got it. Brain receives testosterone in the womb and genitalia receives estrogen, or vice versa.

As a hypogonadal male who has been manipulating my T/E ratio exogenously for a decade now, I am able to experience the T/E levels of a little girl, the T/E levels of a 17 yo boy with 3x natural horniness T/E levels, the T/E levels of an old man, and the T/E levels of a woman. Think I like the little girl's T/E ratio the best.

I googled hypogonadal male.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-condi...n-20014235

Is your condition caused by the pituitary gland?

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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26-12-2015, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 26-12-2015 04:30 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
Everyone should live their own truth, whatever that is for each person. Society tries to dictate what the *definition* of a male and female are. We get one life, we should live it being happy, being the person we want to be. If a person identifies better as male/female, then we should embrace the fact that they are living *their truth.* Skepticism has nothing to do with it. I can't imagine what that must feel like to be born into the wrong body. I think it is incredibly brave of people to tell society to go fuck itself and live the life they want to live.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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26-12-2015, 04:28 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 03:22 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  [Image: IggyPop-Dress.jpg]

This is a big part of the issue. I think much of the transgender phobia is based in misogyny.

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26-12-2015, 04:35 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 03:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 03:22 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  [Image: IggyPop-Dress.jpg]




When I was a senior in High School, we had a school talent show. My friend and I had practiced this song. I'm not much of a singer but he was. We practiced for about a month, he got all his vocals down and I dress up as a woman (simaler to miss doubtfire) and would come out dancing.

The day of try outs our dance was disquilifed before we even got on stage. Because the song had the line "Then she whipped out a gun, Tried to blow me away" They said we couldn't sing it because of the word GUN. It being just a few months after the Columbine shootings. I said "If it makes it any better it's not really a gun it his dick." They weren't amused.

Meanwhile on stage a couple of cheerleaders where in bikini tops shaking it to the latest Britney Spears song.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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26-12-2015, 04:40 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 04:28 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  This is a big part of the issue. I think much of the transgender phobia is based in misogyny.

Most assuredly, though absolutely not in my case (and I don't think I'm transgender phobic). I consider myself an ardent feminist, in practice and belief, and I am 100% certain that my friends, male and female, would concur.

No doubt related to misogyny is the damnable cult of masculinity that is forced on young males in America (and elsewhere, but I only have experience in this culture). I've long believed that if you could get just about any man to be completely honest, he will have negative associations with the "enforced" male influence of the culture, usually through fathers, brothers and peers. It sucks.

So when Iggy Pop wears a dress, it is indeed a radical statement for most American males, IMO.

I once wore a really cool green dress to a Christmas work party, because I liked it and I like pretty colors and, yes, sure, I am the kind of person who sort of likes to make a stir. With Doc Martens, gray long underwear and a wool hat. My boss, an African American lesbian, was at first pleased with my choice of attire. But as the night wore on, she became suspicious, wondering if I weren't perhaps mocking something or somebody.

I wasn't. But the fact that I could make a stir, and stimulate thoughts that I was somehow trying to diss someone, is sad.

I'm a combination of so-called "female" aspects — dramatic, passionate, emotional — and aspects that have led many to describe me as "all boy" or very masculine — daring, adventurous, athletic, and I love getting dirty and pushing limits. But I have zero sense of gender dysphoria, and it really bums me out that so many men (starting with Dad) think of me as somehow "less masculine" because I'm flamboyant and expressive and emotional.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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