Sex vs. gender and identity
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26-12-2015, 04:47 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 04:40 PM)claywise Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 04:28 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  This is a big part of the issue. I think much of the transgender phobia is based in misogyny.

Most assuredly, though absolutely not in my case (and I don't think I'm transgender phobic). I consider myself an ardent feminist, in practice and belief, and I am 100% certain that my friends, male and female, would concur.

No doubt related to misogyny is the damnable cult of masculinity that is forced on young males in America (and elsewhere, but I only have experience in this culture). I've long believed that if you could get just about any man to be completely honest, he will have negative associations with the "enforced" male influence of the culture, usually through fathers, brothers and peers. It sucks.

So when Iggy Pop wears a dress, it is indeed a radical statement for most American males, IMO.

I once wore a really cool green dress to a Christmas work party, because I liked it and I like pretty colors and, yes, sure, I am the kind of person who sort of likes to make a stir. With Doc Martens, gray long underwear and a wool hat. My boss, an African American lesbian, was at first pleased with my choice of attire. But as the night wore on, she became suspicious, wondering if I weren't perhaps mocking something or somebody.

I wasn't. But the fact that I could make a stir, and stimulate thoughts that I was somehow trying to diss someone, is sad.

I'm a combination of so-called "female" aspects — dramatic, passionate, emotional — and aspects that have led many to describe me as "all boy" or very masculine — daring, adventurous, athletic, and I love getting dirty and pushing limits. But I have zero sense of gender dysphoria, and it really bums me out that so many men (starting with Dad) think of me as somehow "less masculine" because I'm flamboyant and expressive and emotional.

I was a tomboy and never girly until I reached the age of find what the power of sexuality had. Then I was both tomboy/minx depending in the situation. I think most people have a wide range of gender identify but I do think we socially train and pigeonhole people into certain easily definable labels for one reason or another, like religion, laziness, power.

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? - Douglas Adams
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26-12-2015, 05:00 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 04:21 PM)claywise Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 03:22 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  In my daughter's case a surge of estrogen feminized her brain.

So gender isn't simply what a person's genitals are, gender is also set in the brain from exposure to hormones while in utero. It's not just THINKING they are of the other sex, their brain structure IS of the opposite sex.

Thanks. It's been a little while since I read the story and book, so I appreciate this refresher. Indeed, it was this information, as much as any other, that I found persuasive — I had just forgotten it.

Bottom line: I am aware of my own, relatively mild, uneasiness with transgender people. I suspect that has to do with having a father who constantly questioned my "manhood" and "masculinity" from a young age, and later, when I was an adult (with a long record of relationships with women!), questioning whether I was gay. I see that now as a very insecure man projecting on his very "all boy" son. Oddly, I do not experience any discomfort with gay and lesbian people at all, but the gender-queer thing has always nettled me a bit.

Thanks again for the reminder.

Well, I'm not going to lie. When my daughter (my son at the time) told me she (he) was transgender I was totally devastated though I never allowed any of my emotions to show. She was in such a state of mental anguish at the time and it was so painful to watch that I didn't think my own feelings on the matter would be of much help. It's been the hardest thing I've ever seen anyone go through, like the rebirth of a grown human. Talk about born-again!

To see your son became a daughter just isn't easy because as a parent you wonder...will anyone fall in love her? Will she be ok in the world? Will her younger sister accept her? Will anyone hire her? Will her friends accept her? Will someone simply stop her on the street and beat her up?

I alway considered myself very open and liberal and this experience really tested my mettle first hand. We're all fine now. She's a fantastic person, I love her to death.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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26-12-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 04:28 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 03:22 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  [Image: IggyPop-Dress.jpg]

This is a big part of the issue. I think much of the transgender phobia is based in misogyny.

I would say more religous bigotry and misunderstanding than misogyny, a lot more.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] ♪僕は恐怖の一定した状態に住んで、不幸、逃すもう?僕は、それはもう痛いときも気づかないと
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26-12-2015, 05:47 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 04:26 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 03:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Think that's got it. Brain receives testosterone in the womb and genitalia receives estrogen, or vice versa.

As a hypogonadal male who has been manipulating my T/E ratio exogenously for a decade now, I am able to experience the T/E levels of a little girl, the T/E levels of a 17 yo boy with 3x natural horniness T/E levels, the T/E levels of an old man, and the T/E levels of a woman. Think I like the little girl's T/E ratio the best.

I googled hypogonadal male.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-condi...n-20014235

Is your condition caused by the pituitary gland?

Nope. TSH is good. Fellas just decided to go into retirement early. Can't blame them.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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26-12-2015, 07:10 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 05:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 04:26 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I googled hypogonadal male.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-condi...n-20014235

Is your condition caused by the pituitary gland?

Nope. TSH is good. Fellas just decided to go into retirement early. Can't blame them.

The fellas were overworked and underpaid. Tongue

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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26-12-2015, 08:09 PM
Sex vs. gender and identity
I'll be honest. Iggy rocks that dress better than most I've seen.

Bowing Sweet Jesus on Hot Buttered Toast!
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27-12-2015, 04:26 AM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 11:09 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-12-2015 09:07 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Unless you hang around with Tartarus that is.
Drinking Beverage

Problem is (s)he doesn't wait to be politely asked.

I saw a documentary I can't recall the name of where this person changed genders multiple times. Don't know if that means surgically or hormonally. And then there are those who aren't in the least bit confused, just misassigned. Like this happy boyfriend and girlfriend.


They make a cute couple. Thumbsup

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27-12-2015, 04:47 AM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(26-12-2015 04:35 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Meanwhile on stage a couple of cheerleaders where in bikini tops shaking it to the latest Britney Spears song.

To be fair, everybody seems to like pretty ladies. I mean, just look at the fashion industry. Tongue

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27-12-2015, 11:13 PM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
If someone tells me they are one sex - not the other - and that is all the info I have about them; I wouldn't dispute it. Why would I?

If someone who I know to have female reproductive organs and who I know doesn't take - or plan to take - hormone therapy tells me they are male; I still wont dispute it, at least not actively so. Even so I will not believe it. How they identify doesn't affect me or others in itself. However I wont delude myself into believing this person is male just for 'progressiveness' sake.

Incidentally I came across someone similar to the hypothetical person I described above the other day. Female, no hormone therapy, nore planning on it, AND they made a living off of exuding a feminine female appearance. They are a 'camgirl.' They identify as a male in earnest. Just seemed sort of funny that a person who intentionally portays femininity (and is good at it; this person is fucking hot as a woman) would identify as male.
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28-12-2015, 12:56 AM
RE: Sex vs. gender and identity
(27-12-2015 11:13 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  If someone tells me they are one sex - not the other - and that is all the info I have about them; I wouldn't dispute it. Why would I?

If someone who I know to have female reproductive organs and who I know doesn't take - or plan to take - hormone therapy tells me they are male; I still wont dispute it, at least not actively so. Even so I will not believe it. How they identify doesn't affect me or others in itself. However I wont delude myself into believing this person is male just for 'progressiveness' sake.

Incidentally I came across someone similar to the hypothetical person I described above the other day. Female, no hormone therapy, nore planning on it, AND they made a living off of exuding a feminine female appearance. They are a 'camgirl.' They identify as a male in earnest. Just seemed sort of funny that a person who intentionally portays femininity (and is good at it; this person is fucking hot as a woman) would identify as male.

People act different characters than they are all the time, even different genders. Maybe they're just acting.

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? - Douglas Adams
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