Shai Reads The Case for Christ
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11-03-2017, 04:58 PM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
Hey, Shai.

Mate I did not know who this Strobel bloke was, so I looked into him. I watched two lectures and read some of his essays.

I'm unimpressed.

He comes across to me as a man who in fact does not understand both the history and idea of xianity. This bloke can't have been a very good journalist.

Apparently he spent 2 years studying the evidence???

Mate, I've been studying it since 1981. I still read Roman history when I am able.

IMHO, this guy is not a historian. He's a preacher.

So, you want to know about the history of xianity? Here's what you do.

First of all, ignore the blatant lies about persecutions under Nero. There exists no evidence.

Jump ahead to trajan and Pliny. Learn why xianity was seen as a form of treason. Also remember Rome was free for all religions.

Diocletian had the xians punished because he feared it as being weak and as a result detrimental to the empire. We're roughly looking at a decade where this law, for wont of another word, was in operation.

Later a couple of other emperors had similar ideas.

We do not know exactly what took place, but from my own research stretching over 3 decades, it seems that in the 2,153 years of Rome, xianity suffered for approximately 25 years. This time frame includes all the "persecutions".

In fact Rome, as an empire, was xian for over 1,100 years until its fall in the east in 1453.

Xianity is a Roman religion. This is an important fact to remember.

What later occurred after Constantine took power was this.

First, all the various sects began to argue. Xians began persecuting both pagans and xians who had differing ideas. A xian was executed and Constantine demanded it be sorted out at the council of Nicea.

From what we know of this so called "council", is that the meeting often ended in brawls. The situation became so bad that Constantine had to intervene. So it seems things were rushed and that is why the bible is such a literary mess.

Constantine had no qualms when it came to putting people to death. Whether family, friends or foes.

Later, under Constantius, the xians were given free reign to attack the pagans. people were murdered in the streets and temples set ablaze. This occupation became increasingly bad circa 360 AD.

It was the following emperor, Flavius Claudius Julianus, who decreed freedom for all religions. Julian being a pagan and having grown up with the murder of his family under Constantius, and a Flavian, knew xianity in great depth. Even so, he allowed xians to practice their religion and did attempt to reason with the populace.

This was viewed as a sign of weakness and Julian was ridiculed.

We know quite a lot about Julian, both from his own writings and that of the account left to us by Ammianus Marcellinus. Ammianus having been a high ranking soldier working closely with the emperor.

It is said that Julian was murdered while in battle by a xian. However we have no proof of this.

Following Julian another xian emperor, a weak man named Jovian took his place but was soon himself replaced.

Needless to say the persecution of the pagans continued.

Finally under Justinian a law forbidding paganism on pain of death put an end to the older Hellenic and other religions found throughout the empire. This was the death knell for pagan religions.

The west had been lost. The style of xianity in Rome after the Vandals and Goths morphed into a kind of cross between paganism and xianity. We know this due to evidence many pagan priests became xian, for reasons of their own. This strange new form of xianity became known as catholicism.

Quite different from the more, let's say, pure form of xianity in the east.

There's not a lot of room for me to leave you a full account of the history of these strange religions, xianity and catholicism.

Authors to read from earlier times include Gregory of Tours, Ammianus of course, Michael Grant and other modern scholars. Although I believe Grant is now dead.

Anyway, those names I mentioned above are immensely important in the history of xianity. especially Constantius.

Was Constantine a xian or simply a political opportunist like Trump? We don't know.

My advice is to put Strobel down. Quite simply Shai, he's beneath you.

If you have any real interest in learning of this long history, you can ask me and I will point you in the direction of scholars who know this subject in great depth.

Strobel is certainly not amongst them.

I thought he was pathetic.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

IHTH. Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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11-03-2017, 07:46 PM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
Well summarized! And I agree Banjo, Strobel is...pathetic. I do intend to go into each chapter just for the sake of it, but he definitely ignores any history that disagrees with his point of view. Facepalm

And thanks Banjo, appreciate the vote of confidence that Strobel would be beneath me.

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12-03-2017, 01:41 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
I agree, absolutely. You have way more integrity and reasoning ability than he ever will.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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12-03-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
Thought you might find this amusing:

The Case Against Lee Strobel

Professional apologists are on a level below politicians and used car salesmen in my book.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-03-2017, 08:36 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
(12-03-2017 08:43 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Thought you might find this amusing:

The Case Against Lee Strobel

Professional apologists are on a level below politicians and used car salesmen in my book.

FFS, Inquisition... the article was okay, and enjoyable... but I made the terrible mistake of reading the comments posted below it.

My loathing of evangelical Christians has increased exponentially. Angry

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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14-03-2017, 02:04 PM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
(14-03-2017 08:36 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  My loathing of evangelical Christians has increased exponentially. Angry

I was on the NASA website the other day in the comments section. OMFW Rainbow Vomit

I'd turn off comments if I was them. Then nuke the server from orbit. Because fuck those guys, seriously.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-03-2017, 02:40 PM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
(14-03-2017 02:04 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-03-2017 08:36 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  My loathing of evangelical Christians has increased exponentially. Angry

I was on the NASA website the other day in the comments section. OMFW Rainbow Vomit

I'd turn off comments if I was them. Then nuke the server from orbit. Because fuck those guys, seriously.

[Image: cAFOwQ3.gif]

[Image: 8NrvVkw.gif]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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14-03-2017, 02:47 PM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
Never read the comments. Some of that shit can't be scrubbed away.

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17-03-2017, 07:34 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
I have some further questions for your Shai, it's totally up to you if you want to address them.

Let's assume that whatever version of Christianity you have in your head is factually true. Maybe you could summarise what it is?

What are your reasons for wanting to associate with it, and be a part of the religion? Why do you endorse it?

Personally, I wouldn't join any religion even if they were "true", and I find it interesting to learn about why people do.

Many thanks Smile

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17-03-2017, 07:16 PM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
YouTube has recommended to me a video with Lee Strobel giving a speech about the proof from his book. "You could go to any academic institution, any credible institution, to the most hardcore atheist, and they'll tell you that Jesus existed." Lee, you didn't research very well. Sad Also "It's like saying your dog ate your homework, it's admitting something happened." Umm, Lee...as an argument most people would NOT believe the dog ate the homework, so using that as analogy for why one would believe the empty tomb of Christ isn't a good use of analogy. Lee, citing the early Church Fathers while remaining an Evangelical Christian is entirely dishonest.

Hi Rob; short answer: Catholicism, at least to an extent. I read my way into it from being a Baptist, because, to quote Cardinal John Henry Newman, a convert from Anglicanism, "to peer into history is to cease to be Protestant". Considering what became the Catholic Church had compiled the Bible under Constantine and had a series of supporting documents and councils on issues, it seemed more intellectually honest than "shut up and believe" as I was told verbatim as a Baptist. It encouraged questioning. Even in RCIA, the 9 month course to join the church with 3 hour classes each week, the priest said that he didn't trust a faith that hadn't experienced doubt. Also there is the fact I believe Jesus is the Son of God, the Holy Spirit, etc. It shouldn't be about the followers, but the belief.

And since YouTube has chosen to hit me with Strobel as I feel better, let's do this thing folks.

Chapter Five: The Scientific Evidence every chapter makes me feel more dead inside. Why Evangelicals? Why?

Another chapter, another beginning with a murder trial. Anyone sensing an underlying pattern yet? I'm wondering if there is one that Jesus was put to death, therefore we're going to show all these other people too.

Anyhow, next expert, impressive pedigree and then Strobel goes, "his articles have appeared in seventeen encyclopedias and dictionaries" on page 101. Lee...come the heck on man! I have encyclopedia entries. They're right above book reviews at the bottom of the academic food chain. The rest of what he says about this expert is quite impressive, but seriously Lee, starting with that shows how little you understand the world your experts move in.

Page 105 under "Luke's Accuracy as a Historian" seems to be rather nonsensical. Our archaeological expert claims that cities in the ancient world moved and were not static cities. He uses this, with Jericho being multiple sites right next to one another as justification for why two Gospels give conflicting accounts regarding the healing of Bartimaeus in Jericho. The Gospel of Mark says Jesus was leaving the city when meeting Bartimaeus, whereas the Gospel of Luke says that it was while entering Jericho.

Next up is the Reliability of John and Mark. Our expert points out that the Gospel of John says that there are five porticoes at the Pool of Bethesda...okay. So it proves the author of that Gospel had been there. I fail to see how the archaeological evidence of it existing proves the entire Gospel.

Page 108 has our expert telling us that no evidence has been found from archaeology that contradicts anything from the Bible. Rather, our expert claims, that the opinions of skeptical scientists have become 'facts', and that's exactly how it's written in the book, as 'facts'.

Next up is Puzzle One: The Census. McRay, our expert, reads us a thing from AD 104 where people are told that they nee to return to there homes, in fact, from page 108 here, "who for any cause are residing outside of their provinces to return to their homes that they may carry out the regular order of the census and may also attend diligently to the cultivation of their allotments". It shows pretty much you just stop doing business and go home and tend the farm or something for someone to come by and count you, and then he tries to say that maybe the Hebrews did it by paternal family as was a nod to their custom, rather than just to your home like other provinces did. Also page 114 he tries to say if Herod slaughtered all those babies, no one would've really thought it was big news.

I basically hit my limit on taking notes, but towards the end here, we talk about how much more awesome the New Testament is instead of the Book of Mormon, for which there is no archaeological evidence. Fair enough, but most scholars do say that things aren't that physically in dispute that a lot of the places in the New Testament existed. Plus the people who wrote it, lived in that geographic area, unlike the Book of Mormon which...well, let's roll the dice on where in North, Central, or South America it takes place this week.

"What do you see as some of the shortcomings and benefits of using archaeology to corroborate the New Testament?" is our first "Deliberations" question, showing utter bias. As always, the further readings are only in favor of his arguments.

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