Shai Reads The Case for Christ
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17-03-2017, 08:39 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2017 11:33 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
Okay, thanks Smile I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

If Strobel got sent down for murder based on a few textual accounts written 30 years after the events by people who never even saw them happen, I think his scepticism would suddenly "regrow".

I see, so you consider yourself a Christian because you believe it. But do you choose to partake in rituals, worship, prayer and so on? Go to church? If so, why?

I'll shut up if you want me to with no offense taken.

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18-03-2017, 02:19 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
(17-03-2017 07:16 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Umm, Lee...as an argument most people would NOT believe the dog ate the homework, so using that as analogy for why one would believe the empty tomb of Christ isn't a good use of analogy.

Shai. Here's a basic argument for the tomb and the soldier who admitted leaving his post being untrue.

The penalty under Roman military law for the desertion of one's post was death.

No soldier in his right mind would admit such a thing.

Shai, all forms of xianity can be so easily exposed as falsehoods.

Give it up.

Why on earth are you reading this ridiculous author???

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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20-03-2017, 09:25 PM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
(18-03-2017 02:19 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Why on earth are you reading this ridiculous author???

Because he is an intellectual masochist.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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21-03-2017, 12:23 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
He's tried the best, now he's trying the rest Tongue

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21-03-2017, 04:39 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
It's hard to explain to you guys how deep the lies run, in the fundamentalist churches, and how strong is the conditioning to accept the things that must be accepted in order to believe in the fundamentalist principles of Biblical inerrancy and literalism. The confidence that fundies are able to exude, even in the face of clear evidence and/or arguments to the contrary, comes from this conditioning and the slanted perspective with which they are instilled.

Once you manage to break your way out of it, you feel a need to look back at what it is exactly you were accepting, and to look at it with fresh eyes (and a brain containing knowledge from more sources than the pseudo-intellectual circle-jerk that is the fundy apologetics "scholarship" industry), to see how exactly it is that they fooled you and so many of the people that you love.

Reading Strobel's book is almost a primer on the dishonest methodologies employed by that fundy apologetics industry, and Shai is quite right to examine it as a Christian, and to point out both to himself and his friends (including us) that not all Christians are as myopic and dishonest as the fundy apologists... or what I call the Liars For Jesus™ Club.

I think you guys are wrong to badger him about the rest of the claims made by his Catholic faith, in this particular format; the point here is simply to examine the claims made by inerrantists, and to look at the poor methodology one must employ to "get from A to B", so to speak. I think you should applaud his efforts, and listen carefully to his analyses-- Shai knows a great deal more than most of us about criminal investigations and courtroom evidence (a topic upon which Strobel and many of the other apologists frequently rely), and where these writers misrepresent or abuse the processes in order to make points that do not stand up under real scrutiny. That way, the next time you're arguing with a Christian who is taken in by the arguments of men like Strobel, you can have the dirk necessary to pop their little bubble of pseudo-intellectual circle-jerk bullshit.

If Shai wishes to have a discussion on why he accepts/rejects the claims of the Catholic church, I'd look forward to reading and perhaps participating in that thread... but until/unless that day comes, we should simply appreciate that he is doing a lot of voluntary work, in reviewing the claims of this book, and teaching us about what he finds.

Thanks, Shai. Despite some of the salt, we really do appreciate it. Especially your fellow ex-Baptists who had to have this book shoved in their faces... or maybe that's just me. Tongue

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-03-2017, 04:42 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
I'm not trying to badger him, I'm just interested. I rarely get the chance to hear an answer I'm actually going to believe/respect with these kind of issues. He's quite welcome to ignore me and carry on Smile He's doing great work cutting up this bullshit book.

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21-03-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
(21-03-2017 04:39 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's hard to explain to you guys how deep the lies run, in the fundamentalist churches, and how strong is the conditioning to accept the things that must be accepted in order to believe in the fundamentalist principles of Biblical inerrancy and literalism. The confidence that fundies are able to exude, even in the face of clear evidence and/or arguments to the contrary, comes from this conditioning and the slanted perspective with which they are instilled.

Once you manage to break your way out of it, you feel a need to look back at what it is exactly you were accepting, and to look at it with fresh eyes (and a brain containing knowledge from more sources than the pseudo-intellectual circle-jerk that is the fundy apologetics "scholarship" industry), to see how exactly it is that they fooled you and so many of the people that you love.

Reading Strobel's book is almost a primer on the dishonest methodologies employed by that fundy apologetics industry, and Shai is quite right to examine it as a Christian, and to point out both to himself and his friends (including us) that not all Christians are as myopic and dishonest as the fundy apologists... or what I call the Liars For Jesus™ Club.

I think you guys are wrong to badger him about the rest of the claims made by his Catholic faith, in this particular format; the point here is simply to examine the claims made by inerrantists, and to look at the poor methodology one must employ to "get from A to B", so to speak. I think you should applaud his efforts, and listen carefully to his analyses-- Shai knows a great deal more than most of us about criminal investigations and courtroom evidence (a topic upon which Strobel and many of the other apologists frequently rely), and where these writers misrepresent or abuse the processes in order to make points that do not stand up under real scrutiny. That way, the next time you're arguing with a Christian who is taken in by the arguments of men like Strobel, you can have the dirk necessary to pop their little bubble of pseudo-intellectual circle-jerk bullshit.

If Shai wishes to have a discussion on why he accepts/rejects the claims of the Catholic church, I'd look forward to reading and perhaps participating in that thread... but until/unless that day comes, we should simply appreciate that he is doing a lot of voluntary work, in reviewing the claims of this book, and teaching us about what he finds.

Thanks, Shai. Despite some of the salt, we really do appreciate it. Especially your fellow ex-Baptists who had to have this book shoved in their faces... or maybe that's just me. Tongue

I think Shai is awesome. Big Grin

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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21-03-2017, 10:28 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
(20-03-2017 09:25 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 02:19 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Why on earth are you reading this ridiculous author???

Because he is an intellectual masochist.

^^That^^ describes nearly everyone on this forum. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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21-03-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
(21-03-2017 04:39 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  ---
I think you guys are wrong to badger him about the rest of the claims made by his Catholic faith, in this particular format; ---

Nah - I don't think anyone's badgering Shai. We're just asking questions that pop into our minds about faith in general - questions which may run parallel to what this crapass book might be trying to lay out.

Besides, Shai knows us; if we get too snotty or side tracked, he can tell us to fuck off. In fact, with the company he keeps on this forum, I'd expect him to. Wink

I'm just glad it's him ripping apart this piece of trash and not me. I couldn't slog through a single chapter of this nonsense.
***
It literally hurts my heart and mind to know that people write and publish this lying garbage for the sole purpose of manipulating other human beings. The content of the lies doesn't even concern me - that stuff can always be disproved scientifically.

The tragedy for me is the very idea that the lies not only remain undisputed but are allowed simply by their ubiquity to flourish. These lies become accepted and reinforced by other seemingly well-intentioned ... dupes. I see no other thing to call them. Victim, maybe?

Religion forces complicity in it's crime and no one likes a snitch. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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22-03-2017, 06:30 PM
RE: Shai Reads The Case for Christ
Man this thread blew up since my last chapter. So a few replies I guess:

Banjo, thanks for saying I'm better than this. My main reason for going through this is because I'm reading through it with an atheist friend right now, due to the movie coming out.

Robvalue, no need to ask if I want you to shut up. I go because I do believe in it, and going and the rituals are part of that. It's also nice in the secular reason for having a community to do something with.

OrganichChemist, I think at times I am.

RS, you are so right sir. Going and looking back at this stuff from a place of...not unbelief per se, as much as changed belief compared to the Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide being unscriptural, it's interesting. Plus I like how you phrase it as a primer on dishonest apologetic methodologies. Which is quite disheartening. (If one does want to take potshots at my own apologists, "Answering the New Atheism" is a good place to start. Just saying...it was written as a response to God Delusion and not up to its attempt to do so. Maybe a thread for another time, if I feel up to it, and you all would be interested.)

And thanks RS, I appreciate y'all too. Smile Never read this back when it was being heavily pushed. Nor when originally getting it at a book sale, it's funny it took an atheist friend wanting someone to read it with her for me to finally get to it.

Kim, I'm probably too non-confrontational to say "fuck off" to everyone here directly. Tongue Unless a bit cranky in mood (and quite frankly, my head is killing me, or I'd do a chapter right now, so this might actually be the mood LOL). What you had to say about the book though is pretty much along the lines of my friend and partner in reading this, "Jesus. It hurts to read this at times. But I want to finish."

Now...I need to catch up by Friday on two more chapters for my friend and I to both be over our flu bouts. So maybe a chapter tomorrow? Maybe later tonight if head stops aching enough. Next chapter is "The Rebuttal Evidence" followed by "The Identity Evidence".

Need to think of a witty signature.
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